Nicole shares her inspiring recovery story from rheumatoid arthritis and her journey to living a vibrant, medication-free life. From her early struggles to her triumphant achievements, hear how she changed the trajectory of her health and empowered herself along the way.

We discuss in this interview:

• How Nicole was able to avoid rheumatoid arthritis medication from the beginning of her journey.
• Her biggest achievements like running a marathon and qualifying for the Boston Marathon, all after her arthritis diagnosis.
• Successfully balancing family life while managing her health.
• Achieving 99% symptom-free without the use of pharmaceuticals.
• Nicole’s diet, centered around sweet potatoes, quinoa, and buckwheat, which proved crucial in her recovery.
• How she gradually reintroduced various foods, ensuring they suited her needs and did not trigger symptoms.
• Exercise, including running and biking, played a significant role in her journey to becoming stronger and more resilient.
• Remaining committed to a vegan lifestyle and avoiding oils, finding balance with plant-based fats from nuts and seeds.
• The importance of diet, exercise, and determination in overcoming chronic illness.

Clint – Today we’re going to talk to Nicole, who has rheumatoid arthritis, and we’re going to hear her recovery story. This is going to be the first time that I’ve heard this. So just like you, it’s going to be all new information and a learning experience, and I’m super excited. Nicole, how are you going today?

Nicole – I’m doing good. How are you?

Clint – I’m really, really pumped to hear your story. So before we get into all the details, which we’re going to enjoy and lap up in every nuance, can you try and articulate for us just some of the, um, achievements that you’ve been able to have with your RA, for example? Like, I didn’t used to be able to walk and now I can walk three miles. Like, give me a, like a summary of some of the big accomplishments before we hear your full story.

Nicole – Um, well, I never got on rheumatoid arthritis medicine, so I was able to stay off it from the start. After a rough beginning, um, and I. Yeah, I started out, it was, like, hard to stand in the kitchen long enough to make dinner, and now I can run a marathon.

Clint – Well, there you go. That’s not bad.

Nicole – Those are my big accomplishments.

Clint – And when you say run a marathon. So you literally engage in marathon competitions or recreational runs, and you’re able to run the predominant portion of that distance despite having rheumatoid arthritis.

Nicole – Yeah, I well, I’ve only run one marathon, but I trained to run. I don’t know if you know about the Boston Marathon, but my marathon qualified to qualified me to run the Boston Marathon, so it was like a fast marathon.

Clint – Wow. Okay. And you’re a mom of three?

Nicole – Yes.

Clint – How old are you?

Nicole – I’m just turned 35.

Clint – Amazing. Okay, and before we talk about all the challenges in the earlier stages, how was symptoms today? Given that you’re not on drugs?

Nicole – I’d say I’m 99% symptom free.

Clint – Brilliant.

Nicole – It’s been like seven years as the timeline going from saying, now I’m running a marathon. It’s been seven years, so it’s been a while.

Clint – Yeah. And you’ve had a child throughout that period as well.

Nicole – Yeah.

Clint – Yeah, Amazing. Okay. Well let’s learn all about what you did, okay? Because if you could now picture that the audience for this podcast are either listening or watching now, the replay on YouTube. And they likely suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, psoriatic arthritis, fibromyalgia, maybe ankylosing spondylitis, um, some variation of joint pain. And they’re looking for answers. They want inspiration. They want to hear stories of success so they can model that and learn from that. So with that in mind, um, they’re going to be able to relate to the early years of struggle. So picture yourself seven years ago when the diagnosis began, was it blood tests and an inspection by your local doctor? What did those blood tests look like? What was the sequence of events and how did you feel go back to that time?

Nicole – I remember this really specifically, one night I was like, cleaning up toys, like my kids toys, and I was like, my hands felt, like, slightly stiff. And I remember thinking, oh, wow, I wonder if I’m going to have arthritis one day. And I was like, that would be horrible. And then literally the next day I woke up and my hands hurt a lot, and I was like, oh no, I have arthritis right now. It’s like it was like a shock of like all in, like one day of me being like. And it started with just my hands being, like hurting a lot. But still, it’s kind of like, everyone knows your hands, it’s like, kind of like the telltale arthritis usually starts in your hands, probably. Um, so I went to the doctor when it, when it was just in my hands and my anti CCP was elevated. So they like right away were like, oh, you probably have rheumatoid arthritis. Um, and so at first it wasn’t that bad. So when I first was like, oh, maybe I can do it with diet, I was pretty optimistic because, I mean, just it was just in my hands, um, for maybe like, even, like maybe even like three weeks or a month. It was like, just in my hands. And so I went home, I like, researched on the internet and wrote down like, all the different wrote down, like all the names I could find, write down, like the AIP diet Paddison Program. McDougall, Gundry. Like all the different, like, you know, like names that you like. If you research rheumatoid arthritis, you come up with all the different ideas and they’re all like wildly different, like the diets that they tell you, they’re all like super different. So I was just like, oh my goodness, I gotta like kind of do some kind of big checklist to kind of move through all these to try and figure out what to do. But I decided to start with the AIP diet. It’s like a, you know, you know what that is. Yeah. It’s like a paleo elimination diet. And so I did that for 30 days, and during those 30 days, I got really bad. That’s when it moved to, um, my knees, my elbows, my wrists. Um, it was all up in my jaw, and, uh, it was in my jaw. So bad that sometimes I couldn’t hear out of my ear. So, like, it just got really bad all on that diet, that kind of accelerated it.

Nicole – So then I needed to go back to my list, you know, because that one didn’t work. And then I was like, kind of. So then I kind of had the idea, like, I should maybe try the opposite of what I just did because that went really bad. So but I was also just like, really in a desperate state because I was like laying awake at night, like not even sleeping that much. I was a pretty desperate state of being like, I don’t know how this got so bad so fast. But. So then I, um, I found the, if you like, write down all those diets. The one similar thing of all of them is sweet potatoes. Like everyone pretty much agrees that sweet potatoes are okay. Um, across like paleo, Vegan. Gundry, Medical Medium Guy. Like all the different people, they’re all like sweet potatoes are okay. So then I was like, all right, we’re starting with sweet potatoes. And I just, like, only ate sweet potatoes for a few days. And then I was like, I’m just going to test every single food that I eat. Um, with the base being sweet potatoes. And so that’s where I started. Um, and then. And then, yeah, I started to move. I was like, I try and get ones that like, I was mostly trying to add, you know, the bigger calorie things or a little bit like quinoa, more so than, like, I didn’t want to like it was like every three days I would add another food.

Nicole – You gave me the buckwheat idea. I did sweet potatoes, quinoa and buckwheat for a long time. And after, like, maybe even only like a week of that of like the sweet potatoes, I was like, oh, I was like, I think I’m like a little bit better. I was like, I think this might be working. It wasn’t like dramatically better. It was like very slow. But I was like, I think I might be a little bit better. And then part of me was like, oh no, that means I have to keep eating sweet potatoes and buckwheat forever. And, um, so I wrote down everything I ate, and I would try and bring things in. I ate like I would just eat like a bowl of plain salad all the time, because maybe that would, like, help me digest the food. Um, and then, like, I’d make some mistakes, like, you know, like, Gregor always tells you you should eat flax seed. I mean, Doctor Gregor, he always tells you should eat flax seeds. So I’ll be like, oh, maybe I should do that. Then try and eat flax seed. And then I’d progress a little bit and be like, oh no, that was wrong. It’s like trying to listen to all the advice, but I have to test everything. Um.

Clint – That was my exact experience to, uh, you know, there’s I was doing green smoothies, but green smoothies cause so much weight loss that then I put flax seed in my green smoothies. And this was my own, um, my own initiative. Uh, it’s not something that I saw others do because this was way back in 2009, around about that time. So very much doing things, uh, through my own experimentation and noticed, uh, weeks later, like, why am I so much worse? And so then I took the flaxseeds back out because I didn’t even suspect that could be a problem because it’s touted for the omega threes, and then the positioning on that. Um, but then I took them back out again and noticed a dramatic, um, and immediate reduction in symptoms, uh, and then just added my calorie replacement that I’d lost from taking out the flax. Uh, just added more of the other foods that were already safe. So I was able to maintain the same calorie intake, but now without the pain. So we’ll get to that, because I’ve seen your email around some of the things that you’re about to talk about, um, around total fat intake when you’re inflamed. Um, so yeah, um, I’m enjoying it so far. Thank you for sharing this.

Nicole – I was going to say maybe just to rewind all the way back, I forgot to say that like one week after my hand started hurting, like only one week after that, my feet went numb and they would, like, go numb on and off. Um, just like throughout the day, they would just go numb on and off throughout the day. And um, and then the, the doctor, my ANA was like showing that like maybe I had either crest syndrome or lupus or like something else other than rheumatoid arthritis? But the rheumatoid arthritis was obviously the bigger problem because the pain is a lot worse than just like, having, like, your feet going numb. But whenever I was, like, writing everything down, like things that triggered the rheumatoid arthritis were different than the things that triggered the, like, numb feet. So I figured the numb feet was like, if I, if I was eating gluten, that would make my feet go numb, but it wouldn’t bring the rheumatoid arthritis. So I kind of had like two lists going kind of to figure out the things that make my feet go numb and then the things that make rheumatoid arthritis. But like the process that I did took care of both of them. It just made it like more a little bit more complicated. Um, but like the feet going numb thing It that I, I was able to manipulate that earlier than I was the rheumatoid arthritis. So it was like kind of gave me a little bit of confidence that even though I was doing the wrong thing for rheumatoid arthritis, it gave me the confidence of, oh, it has something to do with food. You know.

Clint – You knew you had some degree of influence over it. And therefore when we have that knowledge, we know that if we can influence it, we can get rid of it. It’s just then what other things can I do to get a greater influence? Yeah. Amazing. Okay.

Nicole – So when it seemed like it was like, oh, nothing’s I’m doing nothing I’m doing is working for arthritis. Like, I felt like that a couple of times. I could always kind of fall back on, but I think it’s working for the other thing. So I’m going to get there. Um, yeah. So anyways, I kind of went backwards, but then. Yeah, so I kind of got that the numb feet thing figured out faster than the. And I also just kind of got better because like the rheumatoid arthritis, so slow, like such slow progress, such slow that you’re like, you have to be like, it’s so easy to think, oh, it’s not working. I guess you have to like, constantly fight that, kind of that in your brain.

Clint – Well, we’ll come back to your story on the foods in a moment. Um, did you at any point go and see a rheumatologist and hear about the prescription of the drugs, or is that actually coming later in this story?

Nicole – No. Sorry. Um, they were telling me about all the drugs. They. Yeah, right away, before I even got really bad. And they just, like the blood work showed it, the blood work showed I had all kind of autoimmune stuff. And then, like, my hands were hurting, they right away were, like, telling me about all the different drug options. And then like also you like look on the internet and you see people who like are jumping from like one med to another med and things aren’t going very well for them. Um, but yeah, so I had at the time I had two kids and I really wanted to have another kid, and I was worried that if I got on the drugs for rheumatoid arthritis, it would might be harder to get off than if I just stayed off from the get go. So I just kind of was determined to stay off of them. Mostly it was because I just like, really wanted to have a baby and just thought maybe I could do it, I don’t know. My determination during that time, I don’t even know what possessed me. I told them I wasn’t going to do the medicine, but they were like, well, you can always come back anytime. And I’m like, yeah, I’ll come back anytime, come back and get it. But I kept going back. Yeah, I kept going back a few times just because I didn’t know if they were going to, like, diagnose with something else for sure. Uh, like, I knew I had rheumatoid arthritis, but, I don’t know. Still trying to figure out if there’s anything else going on too. So yeah, I kept going back for like a whole half a year and then just kind of just getting blood taken and thinking about things I saw like maybe three different, um, rheumatologists at that time. And the third one I saw thought I was really interesting. The first two were like, no way, that’s never going to work. They’re like, you don’t understand anything, but the third one was like, that’s when I had already started to see some progress, you know? And he was like, whoa. Like he talked to me for a long time, so I found one that was at least like open to it being like, whoa, like, what’s going on here? Um, and he could see like. Yeah, because my, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but my anti CCP number was getting better. Um, across the different doctors, I was like, sending my files over to them. Um, I yeah, I can’t remember, but it got a little. It got better than me. The third one be like, oh, how did you do that?

Nicole – Then just my inflammation going down and then, um, and. Yeah, from the start, I was trying to find things that I could like, ways I could exercise a little bit. Um, but yeah, for a while, I mean, I’d say, like, for the first few months, I definitely really wasn’t. I was just, like, so busted up I was so busted up. But then once I started seeing some improvement after eating all my sweet potatoes, then I started, um. You know how you can put a bike on like, a you can put like an outdoor bike on a thing to make it an indoor bike. Yep. Yeah, that’s where I started. I started just inside. Super little slow on, like the bike like that. Um, and then slowly moved from being able because that, like, seemed more control in control than doing it outside. And then as I got better, I started biking outside. Um, but yeah. So I was just moving like, oh, yeah. And then, sorry, I’m just like jumping all over the place because I’m like, oh, I forgot to say this. Um, one thing I, another thing I, you know, I’ve heard you say stuff like this too, where it’s like sometimes you throw a bunch of stuff at the problem and you’re not really sure exactly which ones were the ones that were the winners. That’s kind of how I feel about the time I was like, I did a lot of stuff. I don’t know, I don’t know what all was the best or what didn’t really matter. But at the time, I kind of thought maybe I needed to fast so I would fast more than I probably should because I lost a lot of weight. But, um, I would do like 24 hour fasts, like even like once a week for a while. And then like, I did the celery juice, like, almost every day for like six months. Um. And yeah, I’m like, I don’t really did the celery juice and fasting. Did that help a lot? I don’t know, the biggest change was just being like, okay, I need to just eat sweet potatoes. That was when I was like, oh yeah, I’m really getting on the right track here. And then all the rest of the little things, it was like just changing little tiny things and not being positive what was like. But then I’d always look back at like, oh, let’s look back one month ago. And then I’d be like, oh, I’m doing so good. Like day to day. Sometimes you can’t see yourself getting better, but you look back one month and you’re like, oh yeah, I’m doing it right.

Clint – Yeah. Very true, very true. And when you were able to start getting on the stationary bike, let’s call it, um, and you’re expanding a little by little with your foods, did you reach a point where you’re able to tolerate quite a range of different plant based foods? Did you eat off of a plant based diet or did you stay on that? Um, did you retest higher fat foods like the flax just take us through that next, kind of that next period, because we’ve still got a lot to get to in terms of.

Nicole – It took me a long time to test. I tested every food I ate every three days, so just getting through, like, the normal foods you’d want to eat, that took a long time. So, like, probably for like, nine months, I was just trying to get, like, you know, I was like, I was testing broccoli. I was testing, like, every single little. I was testing, like, just chili, like spices, like garlic powder, like I was testing everything. I didn’t trust anything. So just that alone just took a long time. And then when I had, um, I put stuff into, like, um, that app called, like, chronometer. Am I saying it right? Do you know that app chronometer? You can, like, put stuff in there, and then I’d be like to, like, make sure I’ve got all my vitamins. And so eventually I was like, oh, I’ve got a really good, like, circle of things because it’s really filling up my chronometer good. And so then I just kind of sat on that a little while because I was just like, felt like, I don’t know, victory or something. So I kind of like sat on that for a little ones. I feel like I built it up and I was like, gaining more weight. So then the, the fat was I figured out I could take, like an omega-3 supplement. Like, I could handle an omega three supplement better than, like, flaxseed. So for a while I was just like, well, maybe my supplements just good enough. Um, so I really wasn’t in a rush to add fat in because I was just like my supplement and my chronometer. It all looks good. So I was convinced I was just kind of doing good.

Nicole – And so once I kind of I didn’t, I wasn’t in a rush. But like I’d say so like for the first year, I maybe didn’t even really add much fat, just kind of stuck with that. And I was just happy with that. And then and then I started being and then I yeah, then I started doing like, just whole nut, like whole nuts. And then I’d be like, oh. Like, you kind of slowly see, like, oh, I can’t eat this can get away with more. I can put my flaxseed in my smoothie. Um, I’ve always stayed vegan. I’ve just been, like, vegan, saved my life, and I’ve just been, like, loyal to vegan. So I haven’t tried to, uh, eat any kind of dairy or meat at all in the last seven years. And I have and I never eat oil. And so mostly I’ll just like any nuts I will eat and like, I’ll, I use, like, blanched almonds and I like, blend them up to make like sauces or salad dressing or something. Um, chop up walnuts in my oatmeal and stick them in my buckwheat, stuff like that. Um, yeah. So I mean, I you could still say, I don’t know, I think I like, feel like I eat quite a bit of nuts and stuff, but like compared to other people. Like, I’m not going to eat oil and I rarely will eat like almond butter or something. So I’m still probably like a little bit low fat. But then I know that I can just like I can just eat like handfuls and handfuls of nuts and I’ll be fine. Some people might think that’s still really low fat, though. I don’t know, it’s kind of like perspective.

Clint – Yeah. Compared to the standard American diet. That’s probably. Yeah. Because there’s just so much fat if you go for any fast food a few times a week or you’re just eating oil laden takeaways or, you know, stir frying stuff at home or cooking in butter or all these things that I can’t even fill in the blanks there because I just haven’t done it in 20 years. But the things that most people do, yeah, you’re still likely to be lower fat, even with a couple of handfuls of nuts, uh, each day. So you’ve made your way through what we call the re-introduction guide in our program on your own just by starting out with very low fat testing foods, albeit slower than maybe, well, definitely slower than what we feel you could do, but you’re very conservative on your own. Plus, your only exercise was just the light resistance stationary bike. Um, and you know, you were exploring this in your own way. Um, and so doing it very conservatively mirrors really my experience when I was doing this on my own because I too stayed on baseline, which was sweet potatoes, quinoa, buckwheat, and I had some fruits and veggies and leafy greens with that, I did that for 12 months. So very similar sort of slow process to yourself so a lot of parallels here. And also with the Omega-3 supplement that is entirely correct. You can meet your Omega three requirements just by taking a supplement in the absence of high fat foods. And so this also enabled you to keep overall fat content down but meet your fatty acid requirements. So this is not instructional to people listening to this thinking I’m just going to do that. But you know, it can be done carefully as long as you’re also eating a broad range of other sources of of fatty acids, which are in low quantity. But, you know, things like leafy greens are a good example. You can do it. Okay. So it’s not as easy as when you’re eating a lot of different high fat foods, but it can be done. And then later you’ve developed that fat tolerance. And then you’ve been able to eat the more conventional high fat foods, which are additionally good for the microbiome as well. The nuts and seeds, nuts especially so fascinating how you’ve been able to navigate the difficult maze, um, whilst out on your own.

Nicole – I forgot to tell you about the butternut squash.

Clint – Okay, tell us about butternut squash. Typically harmless for most people.

Nicole – I like was doing my tests like zucchini and summer squash was like, good. So I was like, oh, I can eat squash. And I just kind of like, put an umbrella over squash. And then it was almost like a whole year after I was diagnosed that I just discovered butternut squash and was like, oh, I actually love this. This is so good. I like, love squash. And I just started cooking it all the time. And in my mind, I didn’t really ever give it like an official test because I just thought I could have squash like in general. And it was like a year and I lived in, um, Texas at the time where it’s like really hot in the summer. And I started getting worse. And I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, what if it’s the weather? Like, what if I got better because of like, the weather? And now it’s been a year and the weather’s come back around and I just couldn’t figure out why I was getting worse again. And I just kept eating the butternut squash because I didn’t realize. And then I remember my my because I used to, like, chop up sweet potatoes sometimes and I just have, like, cubed sweet potatoes in the fridge. But then it switched to being cubed butternut squash because I was just trying something new. And then my husband kept saying he said like three times. He said these sweet potatoes taste so weird. And then I’d be like, they’re not sweet potatoes, they’re butternut squash. And then on the third time I was like, they’re not sweet potatoes, it’s butternut squash. And then all of a sudden the light bulb went off in my head and I was like, oh my gosh, that’s what I changed. I switched the sweet potatoes to squash. And then once I took away the butternut squash, I started getting all the way better again. And so anyways, I was going to say that one because sometimes even how I was so conservative and careful with every single little thing. There’s a few times where I still like, start sliding back down into like knees hurting, everything going wrong. And it’s something as innocent as I thought it was cool to eat butternut squash.

Clint – Did you exclusively switch out the sweet potatoes for butternut squash, or was it only a small percentage of a shift?

Nicole – I probably was still eating sweet potatoes, but I was definitely on a because, like, you know, like, whenever you eat the same things all the time, sometimes you, like, discover something and then like, it’s fun to eat this new thing. I was on like, a, oh, there’s so much I can do with butternut squash. I was just like, I was excited about. I can, you know, the feeling of being excited about butternut squash. Um, I probably didn’t exclusively swap it out, but just I was I don’t know, you kind of eat butternut squash in the same ways you would eat sweet potatoes.

Clint – There might be two kind of two mechanisms here. One, you may have had a food sensitivity to butternut squash. However, that is that is really uncommon. It’s one of the first foods that is, uh, part of the refeed at True North, after a long water fast. It’s that sort of neutral for most people. It’s pretty just pretty much just some fiber, uh, and, and water and some nutrients. Like, there’s almost there’s almost no calories in it. It’s very bland in terms of a, a food source. So partially there could be that very low but potential food sensitivity aspect. And then secondly, it just might be through the, de-emphasis on the sweet potato, which had been so helpful for you because it’s just so good for stimulating the right bacteria in the bowel, and also the beta carotene, which is in it’s very anti-inflammatory as an antioxidant. And so just the, the again, the sort of the, the, the easing off of the volume of that may have allowed more of a of a setback to occur. So two mechanisms we’ll never know which one doesn’t matter. But the message is consistency when we’re walking on the tightrope of pain avoidance is crucial. It is that rope with treacherous problems beneath and left and right, we gotta stay exactly on the rope. Especially when you don’t have a safety net below it, which is the medication, you make a misstep. The safety net catches you, and it doesn’t show up as a huge issue. But without the safety net. And, you know, you got to walk very, very carefully, which you’d done so well up until that point. And who would have thought? You know, this just illustrates the vulnerabilities that we have until and this is like drum roll and pull back the curtain. You become physically and aerobically strong and fit. And so that’s what I want you to talk about next. Because now I imagine if you were to vary up your diet and dare say, eat some of the thus far labelled evil butternut squash, you may find that it does absolutely nothing. Okay. So tell us about now you’ve got you’ve had a baby in there at some point you’ve fallen pregnant and you’ve also started to get really into fitness. So I want to know how this all fitted in as well and what symptoms were like and what you ate like during pregnancy. So start with that.

Nicole – So it was like, 2018 is when rheumatoid arthritis started and then, um, I think I got pregnant it wasn’t it was like 2021 that I got pregnant. So it was like I had to go through the phase where, like I lost a bunch of weight, then gained all my weight back then I could get pregnant. And when I was pregnant, yeah, I mostly just ate all the same stuff. I remember like, when you’re pregnant, there’s some foods that are like, oh, I like, love eating rice and dahl, but not when I was pregnant. During the time I was pregnant, it was so horrible. I couldn’t believe I couldn’t eat that. And then as soon as I was not pregnant anymore again, I’m now back to my rice and dahl. But yeah, everything. And like. Yeah, on all the blood work that you do when I was pregnant, like my iron was never low. Um, like everything was good. And that whole pregnancy went good. Um, yeah. And then I breastfed that baby for two years, and then. Yeah. And I started riding my bike a lot outside, during those two years, like before I had the baby. Like, I’d even start doing, like, oh, I’m going to ride this loop, like, really fast, and then I’ll ride this loop slow and like, kind of doing almost like little workouts on my bike. And then obviously I took a little break from the exercising as much whenever I was pregnant. And then a year after I had the baby, um, that’s when I started to decide I was going to, like, test and see how much I could run.

Nicole – After when I first got rheumatoid arthritis, like a year and two years later, I could still I could be like, oh, I’m going to go run, like, two miles. I could do, I could start like, I, I remember I first I just ran back and forth in my backyard a little bit like just to test it that little to see, like, oh, can I run without my knees falling apart. So like I very slowly started being like. And then once I could run like two miles, I was like, okay, that’s good. And then it wasn’t until a year after I had the baby that I started being like, mm, maybe I could train like and run like some races and like, try and, like, see how much I could do. And then that’s when I got in my head like, oh, maybe I could qualify to run the Boston Marathon. I started getting like some big goals and I was just like, didn’t know if I would be able to, but I was like, might as well try. Um, so. Yeah. And then I was just, I was, I was very surprised. I just, like, slowly was like building up how many miles I was running and then started doing like, like intervals where you, like, run faster, like for little workouts, running. And yeah, I was like, I never felt any, like, rheumatoid arthritis, knee pain. Like I was sure it was going to come. So then I’ve been running for maybe three coming up on three years now. Or like I’ve been training like running more seriously for like three years now. Um, and then I. Yeah. And then I ran my first marathon in October.

Clint – What’s it feel like?

Nicole – Exercising escalated kind of quickly there at the end when I realized I could just do a lot now..

Clint – This is, uh, this is just a key part of your story. And when you and we’ll talk about the running in a moment. But when you noticed you could run further and further, did you also find that you could eat more and more foods without that fear and without that vulnerability and sensitivities?

Nicole – Um, yeah. See, with the fat, I actually don’t even know where the amount is now that I can’t eat, like. Like, I it’s just like I eat as much fat as I would want to eat. And I don’t know where the line is anymore. And like, I know, like, one time I ate, like, I don’t know this, I don’t know, one time I ate, like, a whole bunch of dark chocolate. Like, it was like, like still like vegan, but, like, I don’t normally eat a bunch of chocolate. I just eat, like, super, like ridiculous amount of chocolate and nothing happened. And I was completely fine. And I was like, well, I probably shouldn’t eat, you know, like whole bag of dark chocolate very often. But so yeah, like, now I know that, like, even if I’m just like, I’m going to eat this, like, whole bag of dark chocolate. Like, I’ll probably be completely fine. I don’t do that because it’s not that healthy. But yeah, like, I don’t really know where my fat line is anymore because I don’t want to eat anything more than a lot of dark chocolate. And I haven’t tried. I know some people will eat, like, little bits of oil. Like we’ll start eating oil again, but I just kind of like, I’m so used to not doing that, and I don’t really have a desire to do that, so I just don’t.

Clint – Continue to not because I don’t know if you’ve heard my story, but in 2019, right around when you were kind of getting diagnosed and going through this, I was 13, 14 some odd not years into my rheumatoid, and I had been absolutely rock solid like I in my internal dialogue, had the cure word circulating because I couldn’t find a pain in me. I could do anything I could not find even if I pressed into joints and looked for pain i couldn’t get any. And then I went to the Cheesecake Factory a popular restaurant chain in the US, and had their veggie burger and deep fried wedges and stuff and got symptoms the next day, which then after a bike accident went into my knee. And then that just led to a cascade of problems and it was a disaster. So that was just by having one awful antioxidant free, like no salads, no fruits, nothing. I just basically consumed cooked oils for dinner.

Clint – It was not brave, it was stupidity, and it unraveled what was otherwise perfect symptom control, absolutely perfect. So don’t go and risk it, it’s vastly different from consuming nuts and chocolate. Because there are vast quantities of antioxidants within that packet of food that protect those fats from oxidation. When you take away the protective antioxidants and then you heat the fat in the absence of those antioxidants, think sunflower oil, think coconut oil, you are then creating nothing but free radicals. And when you consume those, your body has to donate electrons to that to neutralize that. And the first point of contact is through your digestive tract. And so you’re just losing electrons and having damage to all of the cells that are in the digestive tract, so that’s not the same thing. Fat does not equal fat. Um, so we’ve got the harmful version, which is the unprotected heated free oils versus the protected antioxidant-protected, I should say, fats that are in nuts or the chocolate that you’ve eaten. Chocolates, getting a little adventurous, but as long as it’s dry roasted pistachios or cashews or almonds and you continue to eat those, you’re safe, like at your level because you’re a marathon runner. In my case, it’s because I’m pretty good at the gym and I go every other day like clockwork. And I’m really, really focused on making that none of my medicines along with the food. And so that’s why you can do it. So it’s really, really cool.

Nicole – So I think like with when I started running a lot I also maybe like that was like around the time. Yeah when I was like eight a bunch of dark chocolate. It’s like when you run a lot, you also like need to eat a lot. So I think I did like I kind of I branched out a little bit more with the running also just because I was like, I kind of just need to like smash food, you know?

Clint – Correct.

Nicole – So I was doing more stuff like, oh, like, let’s blend this stuff up and like just yeah, I just started being more like, I gotta get more food in me.

Clint – Yes. And I say this to my children, so we know this from really like basic understanding of common sense, with the body that if you’re really physically active, you can get away with some candy and stuff. It just gets boom, burnt into physical activity and so forth. The problems arise as if you’re eating candy, say, as a kid, but you’re just sitting on the couch watching Netflix or YouTube all the time. The same thing applies as an adult with rheumatoid arthritis. You can have some cheats if you’re out there lifting weights, or you’re running and being really active. The body, therefore, is processing it entirely differently than if we’re stationary. Either through inability because of our body or lack of motivation. So I just love this equation. Like as long as you really physically active, you can start bringing in these foods that you want to eat. Again, staying within the plant based paradigm and get and not just get away with it, but benefit even more because now you’ve got more diversity and foods that equate to longevity, like the nuts and the seeds. So that’s the equation.

Nicole – It took me a long time to get there, but I was so slow and cautious. But like, I got there.

Clint – I want to ask you, like, how does it feel to say that? Like, how does it feel after telling your story here to say, I’ve got there?

Nicole – I remember at the beginning, like when I would tell other people like what I was doing, like, oh, I’m doing this like an elimination diet. And I’m just like testing all the foods I eat. And everyone tells me like. And then I’d say, oh, because I don’t want to take the rheumatoid arthritis. And everyone tells me how crazy I am. They’re like, oh, that’s never going to work. Like, I only knew, like one person that was like, that’s a good idea. Everyone else was like, I don’t know, that just doesn’t sound good. Like and so and it kind of like whenever I got to, whenever I had my baby, that kind of felt like a little bit like that was like my success. Like, oh, I did it. That was like my I did it moment was when I had the baby because like, that was my why for so long. And then I was like, oh, it worked. You know, like once I had the baby, I was like, this whole crazy plan worked. Um, and then. Yeah, and then like after that, it was just kind of like, maybe I didn’t come this far just to come this far. Like, maybe I should keep pushing it and then see how far I can take me. So. And then. Yeah. Now to be like, if I was to go back in time seven years and be like, you’re going to run a marathon in seven years, I’d be like, like I thought I was never going to run again ever.

Nicole – Actually, whenever my hands first started hurting, I would go out in the evening time and just run because I thought I was going to lose my ability to run because, like, that’s what the internet would say. And I did for a while. It’s like I knew what was going to happen, almost. I was just like, convinced, like, oh, maybe if I just don’t stop running, then, like, my knees won’t get busted. So I even tried to, I don’t know, outrun it, but that didn’t work. Obviously wasn’t the ape. The ape diet was not enough to. That was during the time when I was on the wrong track. So yeah. So then. So at one point I remember walking around being like, I can’t even go for a walk. Like, what if I can? Like, I’m just like, I’m so doomed. And to just go to think I could go back in time and be like, in seven years, you’re going to run a marathon and you’re going to run it pretty fast. I’d be like, my mind would just be blown. I’d be like, oh my goodness. So yeah, I’m still surprising myself. Yeah.

Clint – Your big why I must get well was so enormous. Which was I must have another child, or I’m going to do everything in my power to give myself a chance of having another child, was exactly my reason as well, which was if I don’t get off the methotrexate, we cannot have a child. Rheumatologists wanted to add a biologic drug on top of our socialized medicine system in Australia. I had to keep methotrexate just added biologic drug, which means there’s no term and time in the future. We were looking at not being able to start a family. And so I was driven by wanting to have a baby be able to fall pregnant with my wife. And so that meant having to get well enough to taper down off the medications. It’s massive because it’s almost like it’s bigger than just you. It’s about a new life in this world. It’s about what you and your husband share together. It’s about expressing, creating the family that you’ve always wanted. It’s way more than I just want to get out of pain. Because I just want to get out of pain. It’s just not a big enough reason because everyone wants to get out of pain. But not everyone would live off sweet potatoes and things for months upon months upon months. You know what I mean? So the why needs to be massive and yours was absolutely gigantic. And that continued to push you and push you and push you and keep you on track to keep your determination where it needed to be, to keep troubleshooting and work through all of this. And then after that, wow, you’ve rediscovered your love for running and that has helped you now to diversify and become resilient to all these different foods. And this is where you’re at. This is now the maintenance for the rest of your life. You now stay in this maintenance phase and you explore ways to just add 5% more resilience 5% more. And at some point you’ll have a butternut squash and nothing will happen. At some point you’ll eat at a Mexican restaurant, there’ll be a little bit of oil in the beans and the rice, but you’ll have it with a salad or with the guacamole and the salsa and stuff. And you might the first time you go have a glass of orange juice for extra antioxidant protection against lipid peroxidation, you’ll get away with it and you’ll realize, you know what? I’m like pretty much completely back into a normal way of life that everyone lives despite having this diagnosis without being on drugs. And that is considered medically impossible. And you’ve done it.

Nicole – Yeah. And I think I think that also like the running now kind of gives me another why a little bit too? Because it’s more like right now I probably won’t always be like this, but right now I’ve got, like, you know, like these goals in my head. It’s like specific running goals in my head, like, I need to run these paces or like, do this certain time and stuff. So I’ll be like, I won’t just, it’s like I still am going to be like, I’m going to be pretty good. Lik,e I’m going to stay really good with my diet because it’s like, I won’t really. It’s like it makes me want to, like, I don’t want even the tiniest little thing that might slow me down when I go try and do my run, workout, or anything. Like I’m like, no, because like, that’s kind of become like i,t like makes me be even more like eating for like, yeah, like eating for tomorrow. Like, I don’t really care about, like, having a fun time eating right now, eating something new that, like, I don’t need to eat the whole bag of dark chocolate or anything, you know, like I’m going to get my dopamine hit because I’m going to run really fast tomorrow. And like, running kind of just helps me be like, I’m eating to run to, you know? I don’t know, maybe like, it used to be like I needed, I wanted to have the baby. So I needed to be perfect to get to the baby. And now it’s like my kind of like my new thing is kind of like running. And so it’s like I’m going to be like, really good and perfect because, like, I want to be able to run really good.

Clint – Your brain definitely has a way of creating changes that you that are good for you, it’s very, very it’s awesome. Yeah. So for me it was the baby; now it was I want to live the healthiest possible life that I can to almost just continue to demonstrate to myself and to others like what’s possible. So we must have that kind of like, why are we doing this? Because the temptations are always around us and constant. And it’s crazy how easy it is to take a step off the path if you wanted to. So yeah, this desire to as you said before, like previously, you were eating for your microbiome so as to minimize pain to the greatest degree. Now you’re eating for your overall efficiency and for the vehicle of speed. So that’s cool.

Clint – Watch out you don’t have an injury. Remember to stretch after all of your runs so that you don’t.

Nicole – I’ve had a few, like running injuries, because I will run hard. I’ll run harder than I should sometimes. So I’ve had a few like little running injuries, but they’re like, but I fix them, I fix them.

Clint – You fix them. That’s it, that’s it. Love it. So stretching is good, as you know. Um, don’t neglect that. And other than that, amazing work. So thanks for sharing your story. It’s been fascinating and inspiring. So thank you. And I really appreciate you spending some time with me.

Nicole – Thanks for talking to me. It was very. I used to always watch you talking to people, like, back 6 or 7 years ago. And I would just listen to, like, all the stuff that they tried, add it to my notebook, and just be, like, writing down my ideas and stuff. So it’s funny now, like, seven years later, I’m talking to you. But it’s very cool.

Clint – Awesome. Thanks so much, Nicole.