Debbie shares her inspiring story of living with rheumatoid arthritis for over two decades. With a focus on lifestyle changes and a dedication to holistic health, Debbie reveals how she has managed to find relief and live a fulfilling life despite her diagnosis.

We explore in this interview:

• How Debbie was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis at the age of 35 and has battled the disease for 22 years.
• Her experiments with various medications, including Methotrexate and Humira, before finding a program and lifestyle that worked for her.
• Fasting to help mitigate RA symptoms effectively.
• Lifestyle changes, especially vegan diet and exercise, and their pivotal role in her recovery.
• Debbie’s favorite food choices, highlighting the benefits of natural, unprocessed foods.
• Her exercise routine – a mix of yoga, surfing, and strength training to maintain physical fitness and mental well-being.
• The importance of consistency and patience
• Living a life free from stress where possible and prioritizing well-being over mundane chores.
• Spending time in nature, taking holidays in sun-rich locations for healing and vitamin D.
• The significance of self-care, being in tune with one’s body, and not letting RA define one’s life.
  

Clint – Today we are going to talk with Debbie. She’s had rheumatoid arthritis for 22 years. And she sits in front of me now feeling amazing. So we’re going to talk about how does Debbie feel. Amazing despite having rheumatoid for 22 years. We’re going to go through all the drugs that she’s tried and, and ones that have worked for her, ones that have had side effects, she’s had to stop. Uh, and what she’s up to at the moment, and especially talk about her lifestyle because her lifestyle has had a life changing impact for her and she’s glowing happy and she’s from New Zealand. So if ever you’ve wondered what’s the difference in accent between a New Zealander and Australian person today, you’re going to be able to discern that difference as the two of us have a conversation. Welcome, Debbie.

Debbie – Hi, Clint. Thanks for having me.

Clint – It’s a pleasure. And it’s going to be enjoyable because we’re going to learn from you and you’re going to inspire us. And you’re going to educate us on what works to reduce symptoms of RA. But first of all, give us the before and after. Tell us at your worst what things were like, and then tell us how you are as you sit with me today.

Debbie – So I’m 58 now. I got diagnosed with rheumatoid at 35. I had three young children. It took a year to diagnose. I was doing big runs, like 16 K runs in the hills and things like that. And I had confusing injuries, and the physio was at the stage where she didn’t quite believe me. She thought I was making things up. Like my knee would be sore, then my ankle would be sore, and I think it got to the stage. I just remember one night, I’ve been busy with the kids. I got home, and I could just feel myself going down, down, and my nine-year-old girl had to look after the two young ones, put them to bed because I couldn’t walk, I was crawling, I was so sure, and it was soon after that, I think I got diagnosed with the rheumatoid. But it took a long time. It was sort of intermittent, and through that, over the last sort of 25 years, I’ve had some really good successes. Methotrexate was fantastic, worked really well for me for a long period of time and quite a small dose. But I was also very healthy. I still, I love exercise, I ate pretty healthily, I was very stressed, I had three young children and I was working, a tricky relationship. And so there was a lot of stress in there, and I’d have patterns where I’d start to creep up and get worse.

Debbie – And then I had this thing that I would do. I’d do a ten day fast, and my symptoms would almost completely just dissipate and I’d be able to go back on a smaller dose of the methotrexate for another sort of long period of time. And then again, it would build up and I’d feel like I’d need to do the fast again. It was kind of like a six month kind of cycle and that worked really well, and then the methotrexate, it got to the stage where I would look at it and just feel sick. My body just didn’t want to take it. I just wanted to throw up. I felt like I had a hangover all the time. I just couldn’t face even taking it. And I think your body just gets to that point. I don’t know, I just, um, it was still working, but not as well as we’re creeping up. I was feeling more sick and so I managed to get on Humira. So I tried Humira for a while, and I think that worked for almost a year. And then that stopped working. And then I tried, I think it’s a mix of some other kind of Humira type ones that biologic type ones. but I started getting reactions like rashes and they weren’t working and things like that. Prednisone, all the beautiful things to get the inflammation down.

Debbie – And then I think, I was on and then I tried CBD oil. I was telling you before that worked really well for three months. It was the one where you get through a prescription. So I was paying a lot of money for it, and I was amazed at how well that worked, but after three months, it just stopped working. So I had like three months of like less, and then that stopped working. And then it got to the point again where I had a Christmas where I got off the plane, and I could barely walk. That was tough. And you know, at this stage I’m at the end of the medicine; I’m running out of medicines to take. And I’m a surfer, I’m a wing foiler, and I’ve been so lucky to be able to do that through most of my sickness and illness. But yeah, I could barely walk, and I had a Christmas where I was just sitting there in pain, trying to, trying to put on the brave face, you know how it goes. And then I’ve, that’s when I found Paddison Program, and it all kind of made sense to me because the whole gut thing, like with my fasting and looking after my health, I’d already followed a lot of those kind of things to keep on the smaller doses of the medicine. And I think it really, it really connected with me with the research that I had done over the years.

Debbie – But there was a few clues in there. I went, oh, I haven’t been doing that right. I haven’t been doing that right. Like it really helped me clear up the little bits that I think were why I wasn’t able to completely pull through on and get better. So at the moment I’m on rituximab, and I the Paddison program following it and I’m finding I’ve got I’m just amazing. I have, I’ve got my hands are so skinny. though, like I look at my hands and admire them all the time. I’m always grateful for the movement I have. it’s just incredible to be able to go out and do the things that I love and have freedom of movement, like incredible freedom of movement that I haven’t felt for years, just flowing movement without, I don’t know, hard to explain unless you’ve been there and then gone to freedom. Yeah. So I’m incredibly grateful for it. And I do think it works. so the trick is to just keep going down the path, the healing path, and just pull out before my next infusion and then lower the dose as I go and hopefully just keep going down that path. But just being able to have less drugs, no steroids, no anti-inflammatories, and just live this free in my body is incredible. Yeah.

Clint – Just before we hit record, you mentioned that if you fall off the lifestyle routine, you still notice symptoms despite taking that rituximab. So we want to talk about all the lifestyle changes that you’re doing. Why don’t we just get straight into it now? So what are you doing with your lifestyle? What’s for example, let’s start with foods. What does it look like?

Debbie – So my foods at the moment that I’m eating, so the mostly, lots of salads, lots of bokchoy. I love cutting oranges up into my salads, that’s my favorite thing to do. Quinoa, I’m probably saying it wrong. But I still find that causes a bit of bloating, but it doesn’t make me sore, but I struggle a wee bit with that. rice is good for making this incredible bread with quinoa and oats, and that’s pretty much all that’s in it. And I love that. So I’ve got a proper bread with avocado on it or something like that. It’s just amazing. Lots of oats, bananas, mango, sort of fruits and veggies. Nothing processed. Absolutely nothing processed at all. I don’t like the oatmeal or anything like that. I just keep away from anything like that, fried foods is no nothing fried. Everything I cook is in water. so you can fry like onion and garlic and ginger, lots of, lots of spices. I’m trying to diversify the spices to help grow the microbiome. Few nuts and seeds, but I find when I eat too much nuts, I do flare a wee bit, so I keep them to a minimum, and I have included a little bit of seafood like mussels, occasional salmon, but that’s kind of to a minimum. I got quite low in iron and B12, so I’m taking an iron supplement and B12 supplement to help with that. Yeah, but my family history is quite like my daughter has to have B12 injections, so I think my family kind of has trouble absorbing those kind of nutrients anyway. Seems to.

Clint – Interesting.

Clint – I’m pretty complacent about my B12. Probably, too much. I’ve got to remember to take it. I’ve seen many doctors more and more in the last year recommending that B12 can become a supplement not just for those of us who avoid animal products, but for everyone. it is something that is affordable, easy to administer. And, safe safety profiles are amazing. So an easy supplement to take to be sensible. Okay. So now what happens if you don’t eat this way? For the folks who are thinking, oh, it’s always the drugs, this is the only way that we can control the disease. So I want to give people an insight as to how important it is to eat this way or what may happen if you don’t like if you had a big cheat day. Have you seen what happens or just talk about the importance of the way that you eat.

Debbie – So what I notice is, like I travel a bit for work, so I would go into the, lucky for me, I’ve got the Koru lounge, and they have a vegan meal there. So sometimes I would have that vegan meal, just a small amount with a big with some of their salad. And I will notice if I’m traveling for two days in a row, one day is fine, but if I travel for two days in a row, I will notice that next day that I will start to get a bit of a sore shoulder flare in my shoulder joint, and in my hands they’ll puff up, and my ankles will puff up a wee bit too. Like I have a wee niggle in my ankle that will happen. So straight away, like within sort of that sort of 2 or 3 day window, and then all I do is just go back to like eating salads that next day, and that’ll settle down really quickly. So the, the trick for me, I think you might have just one, if I don’t have a choice and I haven’t organized my food properly, I notice it pretty much pretty quickly, but I can get out of it quite quickly too. But, you know, to be honest, that’s the biggest cheat I’ve got because I just love being pain-free, But I do notice that, and I think, I really got the clue one time when I was eating potato chips, and then I had hot chips for lunch, and that night I just had this massive flare, like massive flare. And that was before the program. And I think, just know how much food affects it. And I’m so in tune with my body now because it feels so well that you can tell when the little bit of flare is happening.

Clint – Now, how well do you feel? What’s at the moment when you get out of bed? do you go through that process of like creating a fist, testing the feet as they land on the floor, standing up, checking the knees, or is it just totally jump out of bed, get to work?

Debbie – For the most part, it’s jump out of bed and just go feel pretty free. I’ve just had a virus, so it’s quite interesting. I think a ten day sort of flu. So quite a bad one. And I do notice my feet are a little bit flared at the moment, but that’s coming right with some sleep. So most of the time I’m completely free. Like my body is moving. I really notice that when I go to yoga, like how free my body moves, it’s like it’s young. It’s like a young body. It’s amazing.

Clint – Awesome. Now let’s shift across to the, to your exercise. You just mentioned yoga. What do you do? And what, what do you enjoy? What do you think’s most helpful for? For which joints? For your mental health. Tell us what and why you do your exercise.

Debbie – So I’ve always loved exercise. I think what I was doing a lot of my type of movements and how I would exercise was flaring. And I think learning about that has been really amazing. So I think I’m a surf, a paddle surf. So I’m paddling in the surf and I also wing foil, which is when you’re a board sport with hanging onto a wing. And I would be first out on the water and last in, in my hands. I’d stop feeling my hands probably about an hour and a half in and I’d just keep going and I would suffer like for 2 or 3 days afterwards, my hands would be so inflamed and so puffed up. So now I’ve learnt. The pulling exercises are great and the pushing exercises seem to flare. And I wear a watch. So after an hour and a half, I make myself come in, which means I’m out more often and less injured, And so by putting some limits on myself, it’s worked really well. And it’s the same with the weights. I never go for the full heavy weights like I used to. I just do the weights a little bit lower and just go to I almost can’t do it. And then I stop and I find that keeps them from flaring. So if I just if I go too far on the weights the next day, I will have a little flare. So I just pull back a little bit than what I would normally do. And that’s working really well for me. And I’ve got to the point now where I can do some push. Like I can do a push up. And they’re not flowering. So I’ve got that muscle strength back now. I was doing like two kilograms on this one and now I’m doing like 45, so I’m just really, it’s so good. I love being strong.

Clint – Is this the strongest that you’ve been in a long time?

Debbie – Oh yeah, I lost so much over that year with all the drugs weren’t working and it means that I can do my sports without worrying about how sore I get. And but I have really learned to be mindful of my movement and stuff as well. I think what the, what the Paddison Program has done for me is allowed me to completely focus and given me permission to completely focus on the small parts of my disease, Like completely focus on just the healing. It’s really centered my focus. If I didn’t have that, I think it would be you would let parts of it go so your full healing wouldn’t happen.

Clint – With people who are struggling to do exercise because they’re just in too much pain. You were there and now you’re not. How did you go from it hurts too much. I can do 2Lbs weights to doing what you’re doing now. Talk me through that.

Debbie – Just show up. So be okay with doing this. I’d have days where I wouldn’t feel like going to the gym, and I would tell myself it’s. Somebody gave me some really good advice to just go for ten minutes. If you don’t feel like after ten minutes, you’re allowed to leave. And it’s the best advice ever because you can just show up, do ten minutes, and usually I’d end up staying for the whole hour. And it’s been the odd time. I’m like, yeah, I’m not feeling this, but I’m gonna stop after 20 minutes. But I think even 10 minutes or 20 minutes when you’ve got sore joints, it’s enough to put new blood in there and make you feel better. So I just did less and just showed up for a little bit and just made sure I did something. Make it a habit.

Clint – What’s the cadence of your routines at the moment? Like, do you go Monday, Wednesday, Friday to the gym and then you do yoga on a weekend or what? How have you managed to put it all together in a week?

Debbie – I make sure I move every day, whatever that looks like. So I don’t have to do the gym. I try and do the gym at least twice a week because I feel that strength training is really important. I’m usually surfing, 2 or 3 days a week, and that’s quite all over body because you’re falling off the board, you’re getting back on the board, you’re paddling so and carrying a board. So I feel like that’s quite all fill movement. I’ll go for a walk up a hill. I’ll hang on the children’s playground bar on the way home. so my method is just move, move and try and incorporate those movements that are in the program. if you’re passing the hanging bars in the playground, do a bit of that. when you’re walking up the hill, you know, maybe do a few squats or a sort of lunges while you’re up there as well. And the sunshine, hold a plank for a while somewhere. So I just just move. If I’m like, I’m visiting my mum at the moment, she’s got a beautiful walk around the ocean. So I just make sure I go for the walk around the ocean, and then I’ll stop and do a few stretches or something. So I try not to put.

Clint – I love that. It’s a way of not disassociating the fun in life from the exercise, but to merge them together and to give the body movement throughout the day at different times in different ways. So that it’s kind of who you are and what you do.

Debbie – I also changed my job as well. So I’ve gone from being I’m a X-ray technician, so I’ve gone from being behind a desk doing some Edmond support stuff back onto the floor. And I purposely kind of went towards that because I move all day. Yeah. That’s a great job for me, I think

Debbie – It’s a good job when I’m not sore.

Clint – That’s that’s an interesting one. If people are sitting down all day and they’re at the desk, you you’re you’re up against it every day just because of the way that your body is positioned.

Clint – Okay. Let’s give a score out of ten of how important you think the movement, strength building, yoga, just all the physical stuff is to maintaining your health.

Debbie – At a 10, 10.

Clint – The food’s.

Debbie – I reckon they’re probably an eight nine. Nine. Oh, actually, you know what? Ten

Clint – I just I’m not I’m not looking at you hoping you’ll move it to a ten.

Debbie – No, I think it’s a ten because I can’t it’s really interesting. I can’t even look at a cake now and want it. I don’t want it. I look at a cake and like, I just don’t want it because all I see is pain. I just look at it and think, no, that’s not good for your body.

Clint – That’s like that’s how I think a lot of people don’t. They’ll watch this or listen to this on Spotify or whatever, and they’ll say, this is crazy. There’s no way I could not have a cake at my birthday party or I couldn’t do this and this and this. And look, you and I are, we’re one end of the spectrum. like I had brown rice and avocado on my wedding day. That was my wedding meal. That was it, and a salad. And these days I will have a. Melissa makes a fantastic zucchini based chocolate cake. It’s phenomenal right? But it’s not something that is too often. But what about folks who are thinking like that? Like I couldn’t live like that. What are your thoughts when you hear that?

Debbie – I just think, I honestly think we’ve been brainwashed by food industries and, and we’re kind of being brainwashed into way of eating, what gets me is I go to work with these amazing salads and everyone looks at my meals and go, wow, that looks incredible, a rainbow salad that I’m eating with grains for lunch. And that looks so good, and it’s, it’s weird to me that they sit down with their piece of cake that someone brought in, and they look at my food and their chips and they look at my food. And that’s the unusual meal. Like my food is food and their meal is processed, but I’m eating the unusual meal. So when do we switch that around? That’s my thing. Like, when did food out of a packet become food? When I’m eating plants and food. So the chemicals of food and the the plants is unusual. Like my meal becomes unusual. That’s what I think. Somehow we’ve been brainwashed. Somehow we’ve brought into this kind of way of living that I don’t think, I think is slowly changing. I think people are becoming more aware, which is exciting. I don’t think processed food is food. It’s not food. It’s Processed. It’s chemical. It’s been additives. It’s whereas a salad as nutrients and feeds your body and helps your cells grow and makes you. Oh, I’ve got so much energy. That’s the other thing that I find is incredible. Like I’m on the older end getting towards retirement and I’m working with these young people. Um, you know, and our job, which is active and they’re usually quite healthy because I’m in a health profession, I seem to have more energy than them.

Clint – Especially when you’ve got rheumatoid and you think I’m older, I’ve got rheumatoid and I’m bouncing around with energy, you got to start looking at what’s going into the body as to, what’s making the difference if they’re sitting there with their processed foods, and their desk job and they’re not going wind surfing and yoga and the gym. You can understand. it’s fascinating, isn’t it? I mean, we don’t need to get too philosophical about our opinions and all that around this topic, but I love what you just said. It’s, it’s turned to 180 and that the norm is to be unhealthy, exhausted, pimply and overweight and continued to drive it with crap food and Netflix. And the other extreme is to prioritise our health and our and everything about it, to avoid chronic pain and to eat in a way that’s beautiful is really weird. But it is what it is, isn’t it? That’s why you’re sitting here. Like other than the little virus that you had that you’re recovering from, you and I, we go weeks, if not months at times at the moment feeling amazing, right? Searching for a joint pain. And compared to where you were when you started working with us in the coaching program, I just had it up in front of my screen a minute ago. When you started with us, you were pretty painful. You. It was shoulders, hands of flaring the most at the moment. Knees, ankles, feet, hips, back stiffness. You said when you were.

Debbie – Even that. It’s amazing. Even my back is less stiff.

Debbie – And I’ve got old age stuff going on, like old injury stuff going on there from the sports and stuff that I’ve done. But even that is less, I’m freer. I think your body just repairs.

Clint – Tell us what else helps. Let’s provide as much insight as we can while I’ve got you here. What else do you do that you think I wouldn’t want to stop that?

Debbie – I allow myself to do the fun things. So I ignore, I don’t let the little things stress me out. So little things like, the house is dusty or I need to do my laundry or whatever. If the sun’s shining and it’s good surf, then I do the fun thing, I do the thing that I know will will make me happy. If it’s a friends, meeting up with a friend or something, I will always prioritize that over jobs or house or I just connecting with people. Getting outside is really important to me. Connecting with nature. and doing the exercise just that comes first before any chores or a house or jobs. Simplify, My job helped just get rid of the noise. Really look after my friends and relationships. That kind of thing. less trying to do less on the phone, more book reading. I listen a lot to positive meditations when I go to sleep at night. like healing sounds or positive meditations. Um, that really helps. I think, uh, as well, you know, if I can’t sleep or something, I listen to that and I go to sleep. So I get a good sleep and wake up feeling positive. So there’s no, it’s a win win. I’d like to do more meditation stuff. And in the last sort of three years, I’ve prioritized a, um, a Holiday Inn on the islands, on the Pacific Islands.

Debbie – So actually tonight I’m going to add a turkey for eight days. So and part of that is I think the sunshine, because I live in Christchurch and I work indoors. So I want I’m prioritizing that because I think the vitamin D, the sunshine, the rest. Just bugger the money, go and spend it. And I see that as part of healing as well. So I think allowing myself to prioritize myself and my health has been a big part of this. I think a lot of women, especially out there who have got young children, and are busy looking after other people, they’re not prioritizing themselves. And it’s hard to have that full focus on yourself. It feels really hedonistic, like just looking after yourself and your food and the exercise. I always feel like this is a lot on me. Like it’s, but then the other side of it, if you can’t move, you can’t help anyone else anyway. So that’s the stuff that I do and I keep working on it. Like that’s a work in progress because it slips. You gotta come back forward, trying to get rid of stress and all that. I love a busy life. it’s still learning to let go and of stress and slow down.

Clint – Yeah, I love it. I like your life when you describe it. You’re out on the water. You drop drop things as needed and go and be able to do things that you love. The things that you love involve physical activity. And it involves strength and there’s adrenaline and endorphins and then you go and lift weights. And then when you’re in between things, you’re doing squats and you’re staying busy, you drop doesn’t stress you. You’re energized all the time. Um, you’re eating clean. Uh, you’re prioritizing holidays that aren’t. Let’s go sightseeing in cold and wet. European cities. You’re going to beautiful sunny islands so that you can get more vitamin D and live out. Like spend your time outdoors and sunbathe and your lifestyle is congruent to your aims for maximum health. And I think this all plays a role in feeling amazing. And it’s good, I just keep thinking of the sun and the water when you’re, when you’re talking and I’m looking at you. These are great things.

Debbie – Yeah, I do think it’s giving yourself permission. Like for me, it was just giving myself permission to, to spend the money to. Just giving yourself permission to not worry about what other people think about your lunch. Just be brave enough to, you know, just be brave enough not to, to, to that peer pressure or just to do it honestly, sometimes between patients, the girls and I, I’ll make them do a plank, if we’ve got six minutes before the next patient and we’re all like, okay, we can do a four minute plank. Come on guys. there’s a bit of that going on. Yeah.

Clint – That’s brilliant. That is absolutely awesome. Well, have I missed anything? Debbie. Is there a question I should have asked? Because there’s something you want to share about this condition that you’ve learned. I said 22 years at the start. I think I undercut you by a year at least. You’ve had this for much longer than a lot of people.

Debbie – I think yeah, I think I had it as a kid. but it was undiagnosed. I would get flares in my knees and I know now that it was rheumatoid by how it feels, I would get flares on my knees and my mum would put me in a lazy-boy chair, and I wouldn’t be able to move, and I’d sleep in that chair for the night. And that would happen reasonably often during my childhood, but it was only ever my knees and it never went any further. But and then it came to the fore when I was 35. I think t was in the background. I think, I think what I would encourage people to do is, is it’s that focus, like allow yourself and just point that focus and don’t bridge off that focus to let yourself heal. And I think that’s what you’ve done, Clint. Like when you follow your journey, it’s like you really focus on it down to that minute detail. And I remember one podcast I listened to and one of the girls said, she put cinnamon on something. Oh, sweet potato and cinnamon. Oh my favorite. So, air fry, sweet potato. Put a bit of cinnamon on it. Um, but she put cinnamon on something and had a flare. So it’s like going down to that minute detail and allowing yourself to just really listen to your body, and putting the focus and llowing yourself to do that really helps without the other noise. Just giving yourself permission to do that. I think that is the key because life gets really noisy and you just lose focus. But if you just let yourself focus on yourself to be. Well, I think that’s the key.

Debbie – And the Paddison Program really helped me do that. Yeah. I don’t follow it like religiously. I like veer off a little bit. That seems to suit my body, but I will come back to it all the time. If I flare up, I’ll come back to those basics and then, go forward again with the things I know work for me. Yeah.

Clint – Thank you. I agree with those. The level of detail, so many breakthroughs I had were for the sorts of things that most people would consider an absolute irrelevant minor detail in their day. Like putting flax seeds into smoothies, um, adding olive oil on my salads every night, eating too late at night. Um, things like this, um, just to name a few. the way I would exercise. So many mistakes were in the way that I was exercising, trying to help a joint, but just consistently keeping it in pain because not knowing that the details were so important with how that joint likes to be moved. So I agree with that. Um, it’s been lovely to have a chat with you and I appreciate you sharing. Debbie and I met because she booked a discovery call. That’s how we do business. We interview people, find out where they’re at, have a quick chat and see if the program is a good fit. I do those calls a lot of the time. Our dietitian Cassandra now does a lot of those calls. So if someone’s been listening to this podcast or watching this on YouTube and thinks, wow, like there’s so much more that I could be doing, I’d like some help. Then there’ll be a link somewhere near here and you can click and, and talk to me or Cassandra and see if it’s a good fit for you to get started with us. Debbie. Thank you again, and we didn’t dive into what your plans are here with the rituximab and whether or not you are going to put in place a taper schedule in the future. That might be for another podcast down the track, right down the track. If you embark on that journey, continued success, if that’s something that you’re planning on doing, then come back and share how that that journey goes. And love to get another installment of the, the Debbie journey.

Debbie – Yeah, sure. Cool. Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. And I hope it does inspire others to know that there is a way out of it. I really do, you can do it. You can totally do it. Thanks.