Margaret has run a marathon, and is back on the podcast to give some advice on how to achieve the most out of our body despite Rheumatoid Arthritis.

We discuss in this interview:

  • Margaret’s journey from being on Humira and Methotrexate to running a marathon thanks to the Paddison Program
  • The importance of moving to defeat RA symptoms
  • Incoming changes in the American guidelines for rheumatology
  • Functional movement and joints
  • The social aspects of exercise
  • Effects of methotrexate on energy levels
  • Managing foot pain
  • Diet guidelines preparing for a race
  • Some mindset tips from Margaret

Clint – When we are in the midst of the rheumatoid arthritis world where we have joint pains, where we’re seeing our doctor regularly, we’re in discussions about adjustments to medications and we just feel miserable and we’re in that world mentally. The last thing on our mind is achieving massive physical milestones and doing things that would be considered a stretch even for healthy people. Well, today I want to try and break down the limits that we have in our mind of what might be possible. Maybe not right now, but to put that idea of a seed of thought in your mind so that you can strive towards something that’s awesome again, physically. Today’s guest is going to help us walk through the steps involved in doing that because she has run a marathon with rheumatoid arthritis and she is very, very good at working out the steps involved in how to achieve the most out of our body and do things as I said, that even healthy people would be in awe of. And so Margaret, who’s been on the podcast once before, is back today to talk about her running a marathon since we last spoke to her and how she went about it, and how we can really set no limits on ourselves in terms of where we can try to get to despite our health condition. So, Margaret, thank you so much for coming back to join us.

Margaret – Yeah, thanks for having me.

Clint – It was only about six months ago that we spoke. And so some of our audience may recall our conversation, but why don’t we just recap where we were or where you were up to about six months ago? And just give us that super brief summary of that point in time. Yeah.

Margaret – Well, I should say this, a year ago I was having difficulty going up and down steps. I was so frustrated, so kind of depressed, was on Humira and methotrexate. I started the Paddison Program and I am off Humira and on half the amount of methotrexate 10 milligrams a week. Ran a marathon just by changing some things in my diet, moving, and exercising. It’s just been wonderful.

Clint – Yes, you make it sound so easy. And I Love it, love it. So let me now for the people who are starting to get a little bit triggered by me saying we can do these wonderful things who are really struggling. So I hear you, I feel you, and there are times when I thought I might not ever be able to walk on my tiles again downstairs barefoot because my feet were so sore. I thought maybe I’d, even be here today. I was so down, so miserable. So I hear it, and Margaret, you and I both understand and we’re compassionate and empathetic in that department. But what we want to talk about and come with us on this conversational journey because we want to say, but what if maybe it’s not a marathon for you, but what if it’s going to the gym? Or what if it’s at the gym not being afraid of trying the rowing machine? Or what if it is trying to walk around the neighborhood three times today instead of once breaking records? Guess, stretching our mind. That’s what we’re trying to achieve here. So, um. Okay, so obviously, you’ve been fit and active prior to this. Okay. So remind us you had run marathons prior to RA. But tell us how things then were disrupted by RA in a way that you had to rebuild and rethink how are you going to ever run again like that?

Margaret – Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, that was devastating to me because it was such a big part of our lives and my husband and I would run with really good friends of ours and I couldn’t do it. And they were still running together, it was really hard, it was depressing. I mean, I was doing other things, I was still going to the gym. I still found it extremely helpful to my joints to keep just getting on machines, just doing lightweight, um, and doing the elliptical. I would try to run sometimes, but it was just too painful sometimes. So then going forward after I was feeling better, I had to start slow. This is still my personality, but I was feeling so much better. So I would just go out and just like run as fast as I could, and I wouldn’t recommend that, you know, to just take things slow. But I think the worst thing that we can do with RA is to stop moving, that is just the absolute worst thing. And even if you’re just walking, and sometimes it does feel like an accomplishment to get up, get out of bed when you are having a horrible flare, but you just have to keep moving. That was just key, and I still feel that way. I mean, I still occasionally will have flare ups and sometimes my ankle I just got off one that my ankle was swollen and painful. And so instead of running, I went walking. I mean, it doesn’t have to be a marathon. It doesn’t have to be anything, you know, like that, but just have to keep moving. And I feel like physicians aren’t going to tell you that your metallurgist isn’t probably going to tell you that because many physicians don’t also exercise maybe like they should. And so it’s just not a big part of a lot of people’s lives. But. I just think it’s key. It’s key to feeling better.

Clint – Well, they’re coming out with some American guidelines for rheumatology that are not medication related soon. And these, you see the American guidelines of rheumatology are designed to create an algorithm for physicians, rheumatologists to follow when using different drugs. So if the patient is on methotrexate, not responding after six months, add this drug, specifically this drug, and if that doesn’t work, then take them off that and then test this biologic and so on. So there are these algorithms in place. Well, they’ve never had lifestyle algorithms, they’ve never had lifestyle recommendations, but it’s coming out and I’ve seen them, I’ve seen them pre-publication. And do you know what the undisputed most highest recommendation across the board is for RA patients it’s exercise, and it dwarfs the emphasis on medications, it dwarfs the emphasis on diet, it’s just all exercise. And I just think that because it’s a literature review, right? So they’ve all of these researchers have gone and looked at all the publications and said, what’s the science saying? The science is saying emphatically, movement, movement, movement. So I hope that in five years from now that will change what you said and what we all know is this apathy towards movement. I hope that it becomes a real key focus of the doctors is to emphasize, you know, keeping active. And of course we’ve talked a lot on other episodes about how to begin, there’s guidelines in our program for how to do it if there are people are really inflamed. So that’s I couldn’t agree more. Now, I’m going to be asking you some sort of yes, no and specific questions here. Did it hurt when you were running your marathon with rheumatoid? Did it feel like, oh, you’re working against some inflammation and was it a real struggle?

Margaret – At times it was. At times it was. But I just gritted through, I guess, and. And I just. I don’t know. I just really wanted it. I just really wanted it. And so I. Yeah, I mean, I think, of course it hurt, but. It’s going to hurt anyway, whether you’re doing nothing or you’re or you’re out walking or running or whatever. So, yeah.

Clint – How much did it hurt more, say, compared to other marathons? Because just before we hit record, I think you’d done, um, have you done like 12 marathons or something? It’s just extraordinary. How did it compare to previous ones?

Margaret – Well, the last one I had ran, I was diagnosed, I had my first major flare a month later. That one I felt awful, I mean, absolutely awful. My feet hurt so bad, and I was just thinking, I’m getting older and I how long am I going to be able to do this, that type of thing? That I distinctly remember after that marathon just feeling horrible. And then a month later, of course, I was diagnosed. This felt way better than that. Um, maybe not. But, you know, I was when I started this, I was ten, 12 years younger also. Um, so, but I have to say this while I’m thinking about it, we ran the exact same course about ten years ago and got the exact same time. So ten years older with rheumatoid arthritis being plant-based, exact same time. And we’re not breaking any records, we’re not fast by any stretch of the imagination. But yeah, I was just completely floored by that.

Clint – That is incredible.

Margaret – Yeah.

Clint – See, you’ve run the same time as what you did ten years ago, and now you’ve got rheumatoid.

Margaret – Yes. Exact same time.

Clint – Oh, my gosh. That is absolutely sensational. Next question. How did your body feel? How did the joints that hurt feel after that immense physical exercise compared to prior? Or in other words, do you think it stirred up your joints?

Margaret – I would not say it stirred up my joints. My muscles were sore like. Like they are normally after running a marathon, I would not say my joints hurt any worse or I didn’t feel like it stirred anything up. In fact, I had a flare-up in my shoulder. The marathon was on Saturday, Thursday my shoulder flared up and I took my juicer with me. I was really hitting the cucumber celery juice, really hitting the greens. By the day of the marathon, it felt pretty good. And I didn’t have any issues with any flare ups right after the marathon and even into the next week I didn’t.

Clint – I got to tell you like that’s been my experience with rheumatoid as well, and what I hear consistently I haven’t heard anyone say anything that counteracts that. If you’re doing an exercise that’s functional, something that the body’s very designed to do and it’s within the framework of what you’ve trained for. Yeah, like you’ve obviously been preparing yourself for this, it wasn’t a one-off. So the body has acclimatized to that movement, it doesn’t stir up the joints. If we take a look at osteoarthritis, and they showed that regular running does not degrade cartilage in osteoarthritic knees. So we’re not doing anything that’s dangerous to our cartilage. Anecdotally, your story, everything I’ve experienced, like if I go on the biggest hike I possibly can, I feel as like great as I possibly can the next day. Like it’s the opposite of.

Margaret – Right. Even before I would say even before I found this program, I mean, years before I, I would regularly go to the gym and just do some light weights. And I could tell if I hadn’t been there in, you know, five, six days and and I would be more sore, my joints would be more sore. And it’s like, wow, that really does make a difference. Really does. Just to do that range of motion, those light weights, it just for me, it just made a huge, huge difference.

Clint – Okay. What do you would you say was the biggest hurdle or your like the sort of the devil on the shoulder metaphor of like, you know, telling you you can’t do this or that’s going to be something that undermines your ability? Was it a niggling joint problem? Was it more that you were worried about damage or letting your team down that you were running with? What was it that was the biggest thing you had to overcome?

Margaret – I think one and I always kind of worry about this in the back of my head, like, am I doing more damage? Should I be doing this? I feel like that’s kind of always in the back of my head, just a little bit like, what am I doing to my joint? I just I was so excited about this I just did not want to fail. I didn’t want to have to come back to people and say, no, I wasn’t able, which wouldn’t have been a big deal. But um, for me, I just it, that was, this race was just so important to me because of having the RA. Just to be able to go back to people and say, Yeah, I did this, I did this with diet. And it was like getting my life back. I mean, getting my social group back. And, and I think that was a big concern too. If I can’t do this, if I can’t keep running these distances with my friends and my husband. What’s that going to look like for my future?

Clint – I’m thinking about the social aspect and the collaboration that’s involved with this run that you did. And also thinking about what I see at the gym although I train by myself, I see at least half the people at the gym there training with a friend. And they’re doing it as a little partnership and encouraging each other. Would you think that if people are at the moment struggling with doing enough exercise or they’re concerned about exercise, that finding someone to run. Not maybe run with at this level, but, you know, think you know what I mean? Like this is this is an important aspect of it.

Margaret – Oh, yeah. I mean, accountability for one, is huge. And even to walk with someone. My friend and I, who’ve been running together for years, we always say we get a lot worked out on a run as far as, you know, talking with each other and, and just talking about our problems or concerns or whatever. So I just think it’s important to, if you can, to find somebody to support you, to hold you accountable, if you have trouble doing that yourself, for sure.

Clint – Yeah, that’s the other part of it, the mental aspect of it, isn’t it? Scott Jurek Who’s the plant based Ultramarathoner? Scott said it’s impossible to be depressed when you’re 30 miles into an ultramarathon.

Margaret – I can get that.

Speaker3 – It’s just absolutely impossible because your mind is so in a survival state and trying to focus on everything that’s at hand. And your body’s giving you so many signals, The last thing you’ve got time to do is to be obsessing about some silly problem that you’ve got going on.

Margaret – Oh, that’s so true. Yeah, I just remember to I think that the word that kept coming to me during that race was just gratitude. I was just so incredibly grateful that I could even be there. And I feel like it really puts put my life in perspective, like just being so grateful that I can be out here doing this with other people. Grateful for this program and grateful that I found it, and I can control things with diet and just filled with gratitude.

Clint – Which would have been a different emotional state than maybe your first one, which would have been all about looking at your watch and trying to maybe get another few places ahead of people and stuff like that. Right? Would you say that it’s changed?

Margaret – Definitely, yeah, for sure it has totally changed. Um, yeah, I just feel like now, I mean, no matter what time I would get, it wouldn’t matter because it’s a win just to be out there is a win to me.

Clint – Now what effect did the methotrexate have, if any, on your energy levels and your ability?

Margaret – Well prior when I was on 20mg of it, I did not realize how fatigued I was. I was so tired and, and it’s almost like I didn’t realize how bad it was until I felt better. And sometimes I look back and think, I don’t know how I was functioning I was just so tired. So cutting that down, I don’t notice it anymore. Um. Yeah, I feel great, I sleep great.

Clint – Yeah. Ten milligrams a week tablet dose that you’re on that’s, that’s what I started on. And the rheumatologist said this is a very low starting dose and we’ll just see how you go. And of course then we had to ramp up from there. But. Yeah. And I’ve even heard many rheumatologists say once you get below ten, like if you’re talking about dropping from ten, then you just drop the whole drug completely as if it’s not an actual, like a therapeutic level. So you really are at the lowest possible dose of that drug.

Margaret – Yeah. Yeah.

Clint – Have you tried to get off the drug or talk to the doctor about doing that, or are you happy?

Margaret – Yeah, I’ve just recently, again for probably the third time, tried to get off of it and, and about three weeks I just start my feet kind of start burning and I know when it hits my feet that, that that’s kind of a signal, um, that that it’s not working, whatever I’m doing isn’t working. And for whatever reason, just being on that ten milligrams along with my diet is, is good for me, which is really hard for me to accept. Just this last time I told my husband, I’m like, okay, I just need to be because I want to get off of meds so bad, right? I just want to get off of it. Um, but I’m just really trying to be okay with. Hey, I’ve cut it in half, I’m not on the injections anymore, I’m running again, just be thankful for that.

Clint – Yeah, absolutely. I would say that a vast majority of the community would be just longing to switch places with you and have your situation and you’ve got the side effect of the drug mostly now eliminated the fatigue in your case. And that was my case as well, was the fatigue. So life’s good, there’s no trophy for getting off the drug. And if it’s helping you, wonderful, because you’ve got a very low dose chemotherapy at an even lowest possible dose. So and it’s helping to preserve joints and keep inflammation down, so that’s great. What’s your feet strategy if your feet start to hurt, is does that stop you from running?

Margaret – No, it doesn’t. With foot pain, I try to just keep going. I probably my biggest problem and I need to learn this is like just recently I’m training for another marathon actually, and had to run 15 miles on Sunday. That’s what the schedule said. So in my head that is what I’m doing. Well, Saturday I woke up and my ankle was swollen for whatever reason. I mean, who knows? My ankle was swollen, my knees hurt, and I was just kind of having a really bad day. And I thought to myself, I probably shouldn’t run that tomorrow, but I’m going to, and I did. And I paid for it this week. I mean, I’m much better now. I had to walk. I mean, I still moved. I every day I took a walk instead of running. And I’m fine again. Um. But so that’s my biggest challenge is give myself a break, too. And. And just maybe, hey, maybe run that next week. It doesn’t matter whether it’s this week or next week, but just tweaking that a little bit and giving myself some grace. Hey, you’re not doing a 15 miler today, but maybe a six miler and go walk.

Clint – Yeah. Good.

Clint – So from that lesson that you just had, would you say that it’s best if the ankle is a little swollen or if the knees don’t feel as good, maybe to wait or just do a milder form of exercise because we’ve already established that it’s better to still exercise on those days. Yes, it is. It is better to still, but not to take it to a point where there might be some subsequent repercussions for a few days afterwards. It’s a fine balance, isn’t it?

Margaret – It is a fine balance. I will say I feel like I am so in tune with my body now, though, it’s incredible. Just knowing, and there’s some times maybe I want to eat something that I know I probably shouldn’t, but it’s like, okay, I’m going to enjoy this tonight and tomorrow, I know that I’ll just, you know, have to go more baseline and it’s okay. Um, but you just become really in tune with your body. I just. I just need to respect it a little more and give it some grace.

Clint – How does your diet change leading into a race and after the race? And for anyone concerned about weight loss or a sufficient calorie intake, have you got some insights around that, or do you pretty much just keep things consistent?

Margaret – I try to just keep things consistent. I try not to like I don’t really get into the to the gels that people, you know, take with them running or I try to keep as consistent as possible. When I go out on a long run, I often will take dates or nuts or something that I know I can tolerate, but I feel like consistency for me anyway, is the key.

Clint – Okay, consistency. Great. Now we’re going to play a little game. I’m going to pretend that I am some of the people that seem to post under our Facebook comments all the time who are not in a good way and you are now going to turn around my mindset and encourage me to get me from my current state of pretty much sadness and physical inactivity. Okay, So I’m now going to tell you this, Margaret, you look great and you’ve been running for many years. I find it hard to get off the couch. So, like, how is this even relevant to me?

Margaret – Start walking, you don’t have to run, you don’t have to run at all. Not mean a marathon for sure, but you don’t have to run at all. But walk. Just walk. I find I have had people say, well, it’s just too hard. It’s just too hard. Well, having RA is hard, that is also hard, and being in pain is hard. So give yourself the best chance and just get up and move. Just walk, do what you can. Take a couple laps around inside your house if you have to. Whatever. But move. Just move.

Clint – But I’m tired. I don’t feel like getting up and going for a walk. I just feel so tired because you’re so lucky because you’re only on ten milligram methotrexate. But I’m on 25, and I’m also taking Arava and steroids, and so I don’t feel like going for a walk.

Margaret – Well, I was tired, too, for many years and still making myself do those things. I maybe wasn’t running, but I was still going to the gym. I was still walking, doing the elliptical, doing something, not moving is worse for sure.

Clint – I talked about this with my rheumatologist and they said, Well, if you’re in pain, then just take it easy. So like, I’m sort of thinking I should listen to them.

Margaret – Oh, boy. Well, I would say, how is that working for you? How’s that going? Probably not great. So try walking, try moving.

Clint – Yeah, Well, okay. Well, you know, I’m feeling a little encouraged, but what if I only walk a little way and then I realize I have to walk home, and then I’m going to feel depressed because I didn’t really make it very far?

Margaret – Any step in the moving is a win so. Don’t beat yourself up. There’s always tomorrow. So. Yeah. Don’t be too hard on yourself, get out there and move.

Clint – Okay, well, maybe I’ll give it a go. Thanks very much, Margaret, for giving me these insights. And my hands hurt and my elbows hurt as well. And I don’t think the drugs are working for me. So what else should I do besides walking?

Margaret – The Paddison Program, diet. Yeah look at your diet.

Clint – Okay. All right. Well, thank you. So I hope that people who enjoy that little game we played there because for a lot of people, don’t know why Facebook seems to be the platform where that sort of situation for a lot of people seems to be displayed most as opposed to the go getters on Instagram and the passionate people on YouTube. It seems like the Facebook group seems to be the ones that have that kind of attitude. So I hope that people are feeling motivated here. And what about here’s something I’m glad that I’ve just thought to ask you as well. What would you say to people who don’t feel they can ever do anything of particular physical ability much anymore? How can you help us, me included, stretch our minds to be able to potentially explore more physical activity. Like I’d love to be able to run again, and I can go on little scampers and I try and do little scampers and I don’t get any like, you know, negative things happen to me the next day. But um, and for me it might not be that but what’s that little, little mantra that you have in your mind that keeps pushing yourself?

Margaret – Well, and I think it’s important to have goals, just and realistic goals that you can meet. It’s that’s what, um, signing up for these races has done for me just over the years of having something on the calendar that I’m working towards. And so maybe it’s, you know, I want to walk a quarter of a mile. In, you know, by the end of the week. Great do that but make realistic goals and keep working toward something. I think that’s really important.

Clint – I like the scheduling of it. Yeah, the scheduling is real. It’s in the calendar, It’s real, It’s happening.

Margaret – I paid money for this. I signed up for it, you know? I also want to say before I forget too, we have been doing for years. We do the Jeff Galloway program running program, and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Jeff Galloway. He’s an Olympic. He was an Olympic marathoner. He developed this run-walk program. So if anyone’s ever interested in getting started running, this is a great way to do it. And I still do this. We for us, you can pick whatever interval you want. We run or jog for three minutes and then we walk a minute. So it’s incorporating walk breaks and historically almost every single marathon we have ran about mile 18 or 20, we start passing people. Doing this run walk, people have said, Oh, I’m not going to walk. You know, I’m going to I want to run this whole thing. They start falling apart around 18, 20 miles. And we just keep passing people because we have incorporated these walk rate breaks through our run. And it’s great for, so you’re not so sore. It’s great for your joints and it’s worked for us for years.

Clint – It must also have a beneficial effect on endurance. Having those interval breaks.

Margaret – Yeah with your heart rate.

Clint – Rather than going at a 9.5 for 18 miles and then you’re completely drained.

Margaret – Right? Absolutely. Yeah. In fact, my friend she had run a bunch of half marathons before we started running together. And I had found this program and I said, hey, let’s, you know, let’s try this. She took 11 minutes off of her time after doing these after doing the Jeff Galloway program. So and yeah, not that time is important, but that’s just kind of incredible.

Clint – That’s great. Is there something that you get as an online course or is it a book?

Margaret – It’s a book. But I think he does have stuff online as well. Um, and it’s for anybody. I mean, it’s for people, um, that just want to finish a marathon and it’s for all-time time goals from a six-hour to a three-hour. You know, it’s, it’s all ranges. The book that I used is called Marathon You can do it by Jeff Galloway, but I would encourage people to if you’re at all interested in wanting to run, that is a great way to start.

Clint – Now, I might need you to think a little bit into a subconscious level here, so maybe just ponder on this a moment. Are there any mantras or self-talk statements that you have that you find are super empowering for yourself? And I’ll give you some more time to think. I’ll give you share some of mine. I’ve always felt like I’m the luckiest guy on the planet, and I always felt that way until I hit. And then that sort of really, really challenged that mantra. And I certainly didn’t have the thought in my mind for many, many years until, more recently, I thought, look, you know, it’s all playing out in life the way maybe that it was meant to or things like I also feel things always work out for me. They always work out for me. And it’s not a saying, it’s something that I deeply think to myself when I have challenges, I think, no, things always work out for me. So I’m wondering because you really come across as having like. You know, you’ve just got this, you know, you’re just really in. It’s like you’ve got this sort of focus on life and this rhythm with your exercise, your diet, your community, and I love it. So with that little bit of background, are there some that you might share with us that you have in your life, that you believe that’s helping you through all these situations?

Margaret – Wow, that’s a good, good question. With going on with what you said, I feel like that too. I say that a lot, that things will work out. It’s going to be okay regardless of what happens, it will be okay. And I also think I just, I want to be the best version of myself. And the other thing that, that I think about when doing these things, we only get this one life. We only get this one life to live, and I want to be the best version of myself. I want to get the most out of this one life. And so I am not going to let RA sideline me from living my life and doing things I enjoy. So that is something I think about quite a bit and just. Yeah. Wanting to be the healthiest version of myself. I don’t want that to hold me back. There was a time when I was pretty down, that I almost got into this space of just like, well, acceptance. Like, well, I’m just going to be this, you know, person that my husband is going to have to take care of me or I really got down to that point in my life and I think, No, I’m not going to settle for that. I get to choose, I get to choose what life I want to live RA or not.

Clint – Yeah, the best version of ourselves. That is a really, really good one. Because under that statement, there are so many choices and so many ways that might look for each of us as individuals. But it’s a beautiful representation of the way we show up in life, the best version of ourselves. That means choosing the right thing to put into our mouth and getting up off that couch and walking those three laps of the oval, even if everything hurts as we played in our little game before.

Margaret – Right. Right.

Clint – And I love that. And, you know, I see that in your eyes. You’re like, I am determined to be the best version of myself. You can feel it, I can feel it.

Margaret – Well and think not worrying about so much about what other people think of you or their expectations. It’s got to be your own goals and your own what you want to get out of life. Don’t let a doctor, don’t let anybody tell you you can’t do something because you can, you can.

Clint – Well, I think that’s a wonderful place to end on a really nice feeling here around we can all be the best versions of ourselves. I’m really glad that you shared that. I love that, I’m going to think more about that too. Uh, is there anything you think we missed? Is there any parting messages you’d like to share?

Margaret – Um, I would say this, I don’t want anybody to be like, well, I’m not going to start running if I can’t do a marathon, you know, just walk. Just do whatever you can, but keep moving. But you have to keep moving.

Clint – By way of example, I’ve got a little towel under the, under desk right now and I do this during these episodes. It’s a little towel and I’m barefoot and I just use my toes to you know, squash that towel and release it, squash it and release it. Because if I’m not out barefoot walking today, which I won’t be, then I want to keep my feet moving I use that. Often I don’t have one right now with me. I often have a grip strengthener that I squeeze in between doing work at my desk. Movement is, you know, it’s paramount, it’s everything. And then if we keep at it and we’re persistent, we’re fortunate to have a history of being able to use our body in a really elite way, then we can some of us can do amazing things just like you Margaret. So thank you for sharing. It’s great to learn from someone who’s at a higher level physically. I love that, and I hope that everyone has gained a little bit of Margaret and put that in their life and we can all live the best versions of ourselves. So thanks again for coming and sharing.

Margaret – Thanks for having me.

Clint – Good luck on your next marathon. I’ll be really, really excited to see some pictures and stuff.

Margaret – Thank you.

Clint – Bye for now.

Margaret – Bye.

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