We discuss in this interview:

  • Vanessa’s improvements in the last year and a half, after her first appearance on the Podcast
  • Her strategy to become completely drug-free
  • Managing hydroxychloroquine to achieve remission
  • How dropping medications had a beneficial effect on her mental state as well
  • The importance of the exercise part of the Program
  • Hot Yoga and mixing different training styles
  • An identity shift with the Paddison Program
  • The science behind exercise
  • Acupunture

Clint – One thing that I think is really valuable is to invite guests back who’s been on this podcast before, especially guests who’ve been maybe over a year since we’ve spoken to them. To find out if they’re still improving and in some cases doing even better than where they were when we spoke to them on the first occasion. And that’s exactly the case for today’s guest, Vanessa. She was on the podcast a year and a half ago. She was technically, and medically in remission. She was still on a couple of medications, since then, she’s been able to take her health to even higher levels and become completely symptom-free without medication. It’s a wonderful place for her to be in. Vanessa, we’re looking forward to today to getting your updates and to learn how you got to this next awesome level. Good day!

Vanessa – Hi everybody and thank you so much for having me back on. It’s an absolute delight to see you again and get the opportunity to check-in.

Clint – Yes, I’m very grateful for those people who want to go back and listen to Vanessa’s first interview. It’s called Being Happier and Healthier Working at Home. And you can go and just search for that in the podcast listing under the Rheumatoid Solutions podcast, and that should come up straight away. The title was chosen because Vanessa runs a business to help others who are entrepreneurs or working from home for large corporations and help them manage that work-life balance. So we talk a lot about that and we talk a lot about her back story and all the challenges that she faced and how she got into remission. But today we’re going to focus on from a year and a half ago until now. So, Vanessa, just give us that sort of snapshot, where were you a year and a half ago on what drugs and where are you today with your symptoms and drugs?

Vanessa – Sure. So when we last spoke, which we just worked out, was November 2020. So for a while back I was in remission, but I was still on about 10 milligrams of prednisolone and I was also still taking 2 hydroxychloroquine tablets per day as well. But that was an awful lot less than I had been on originally, I was on the methotrexate, the Sulfasalazine, and countless other drugs I was rattling and I think on about 20 milligrams of prednisone to start with. So it took me a lot to get down to where I was when I spoke to you all helped so enormously by the Paddison Program, so yeah, my gratitude is eternal. And what happened after that really was I put into practice basically what we had discussed on our 1-to-1, which had happened shortly before the podcast recording. That was to really very single-mindedly put my focus into getting off those last little handful of drugs, but staying in remission. And so my strategy actually on your advice was to focus on getting the prednisone down first. I always remember you explaining that those steroids essentially were like a hole in my bucket and all this great effort I was putting in in terms of my diet, daily exercise, I do hot yoga, I do cycling, and I meditate every day. It’s almost like the effort is kind of running out of the hole because I’m essentially damaging my gut with the steroids on a daily basis. I also felt pretty rotten on them, which a lot of your audience I’m sure empathize with.

Vanessa – I just started dropping them 1 milligram at a time and I think I’d been stuck on ten for over a year, so I was quite nervous to do it, if I’m honest, because every milligram, you know, causes troubles for weeks. But what I did that I hadn’t tried before is that I might, in a given week, maybe go 10 milligram one day, then 9 the next day, then back to 10, then 9, then 10 than 9, and then eventually be able to stick on nine. I hadn’t used that technique before and I found it really worked. It almost like confused my body or found some kind of average which made it possible. And I also massively amped up the exercise. And yeah, that really continued over the year, it’s more than a year, isn’t it? It’s nearly 18 months now of doing exactly that. It was easier in the beginning, harder at the end. But I’m delighted to share that I am now completely drug-free and still in remission, and the hydroxychloroquine was the last thing to go. So once I was off all of the prednisolone, I drop one hydroxychloroquine and then a fortnight later the second and I have to say I noticed no effect actually. So I’m not sure that was ever really doing anything for me.

Clint – It’s very interesting. First of all, I just want to add detail there. You did, as we discussed, increase your hydroxychloroquine to assist with the prednisolone reduction. Expand on that a little bit.

Vanessa – Yeah, it’s a really good point. So I actually doubled my hydroxychloroquine, which was my RA consultant actually was already advising that I take that level, but I’d dropped it down, not realising actually that the prednisolone was probably more damaging to my health. So with immediate effect, I doubled up on the hydroxychloroquine and started to taper down on the prednisolone. And that, I think is what unlocked me from this cage of 10 milligrams that I was stuck in of the prednisolone.

Clint – Yeah. I’m listening and I’m like, wow, that’s exactly what I would do. And then of course, it’s exactly what we talked about.

Vanessa – Yeah. Funnily enough, it’s your advice.

Clint – Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Now, for anyone who might be first time at this and thing, who’s this Clint guy telling people what to do with their drugs? Hang on a second, let’s just clear this up here. So our conversations that are done in private, these sort of collaborative discussions over Zoom sessions, there’s always an emphasis on having the discussions thereafter with the rheumatologist and making sure that the plan is sound and that it’s something that the rheumatologist approves and agrees upon. This isn’t sort of a guy just acting like a doctor. This is someone who looks at the evidence of the gut health and the impacts of these various drugs on gut health. And then says from this viewpoint, maybe talk to your doctor about this because these ones have these effects and these ones don’t. Of course, being exposed like we are to wonderful rheumatologists who come on our podcasts and live calls like Dr. Yu and Dr. Nisha Manek, and Dr. Jorge Munoz. You know, we learn over the years that everyone agrees that a long-term drug, like a disease-modifying drug, is more preferable to emphasise than a short-term drug like a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory or a steroid, they’re short-term use drugs. And so that’s all you’ve done is you’ve followed rheumatology sort of protocol, really. But as the patient, we can think, oh, the long term drug that’s more serious, I’ll just lower that and stay on the steroid when really there’s not much worse than a steroid for your health, for your gut, for all sorts of side effects that people can research themselves on Google. So well done. Now, when did all this end? When did we wrap up with the plaquenil?

Vanessa – So I stopped the prednisolone, I’ve got down to zero on the prednisolonene end of February of this year. And I have to say there was a little bit of a kitchen dancing party just like so thrilled to get that out of my life, I can’t even explain. And then the hydroxychloroquine I had was off that by the end of March. So I’ve now been almost 3 months drug-free. Feels good to say that.

Clint – You look good like your skin is glowing, you’re obviously got like a vibrancy about you. Other than not noticing anything with your joints, what other feelings did you get both emotionally and physically by sort of not having those medications?

Vanessa – Well, good question. I think the first thing I noticed was I didn’t feel restless anymore, I feel calmer, more centered. And I believe that was the prednisolone that was creating what I used to describe as like a hummingbird trapped between two panes of glass, that’s how it used to feel to me in my chest. It used to make me feel rushed and irritable and like I was in this constant forward motion, not really even knowing why I was rushing, it was horrible and unsettling and just the norm, and I only noticed it when it had gone. So that’s been sort of game-changing for me, just to feel calmer and to feel like there is no rush. You know, I’m still a mom with a six-year-old and a business to run and the house to run, but I don’t feel the same sort of panic and restlessness. So that’s lovely.

Clint – The science says that people who are taking steroids, both prednisone and prednisolone, experience far greater interpersonal stressors, so relationship stuff really, really unsettles them. Have you also noticed, not just with that feeling of the reduced hummingbird feeling, but are your relationships just a little bit less fragile?

Vanessa – Definitely, yeah 100%. I feel like I have a little bit more distance between my thoughts or the inputs that I’m receiving and my reaction. I’ve just slowed down and it’s only a fraction of a second, but that is huge when it comes to how you’re actually showing up in the world and in relationships, isn’t it? You only need a second.

Clint – Yeah. That reactionary moment.

Vanessa – That is very significant. And I felt that feeling falling as I was going down from the 10. I felt it change around 7, I felt it change again around 4. But it’s when it went and I think it took me a good few weeks post stopping to take them. So I think they take a while to come out of your body as my sense. But yeah, I really felt it by sort of March time, I was like, I feel like the old me. So for me, that’s probably the most significant thing. Then there are other physical, more physical things, such as sleep being deeper, and less disturbed. If I wake now, I can get back to sleep really easily. Whereas before, if I woke, you know, child induced or otherwise, I would just lie there, like with thoughts whirring, and that’s horrible. Obviously, rest is just so important to us as people that have chronic diseases. Also my weight, my weight has like stabilized, and I’m not puffy, which was all around my face. And just my gut health generally, I can feel the difference. I am able to tolerate certain things that I couldn’t before and I just feel brilliant and people are noticing differences in me like you notice or your skin looks different. People comment on that all the time over the last couple of months. Skin and just a general source of energy and brightness.

Clint – Hmm. It’s sort of behind the curtains as to what you can feel like when you aren’t affected by certain things that we need for a period of time. So let’s talk about how you did it. And we know the sort of specifics of the milligram from 10 to 9, 10 to 9, and then 9, 9, 9. That one is a nice little tactic. But what enabled you to have the inflammation reduction from elsewhere so that the dependency on the steroid particularly became less and less?

Vanessa – The biggie is exercise, definitely, because I was I’m a rule follower. So I was doing the Paddison Program. I’d done all the exclusion and I don’t have any oils, I’m totally plant-based, processed foods free. I couldn’t change that much about my diet and I could amp up the kale and the green juices. But, you know, I take turmeric, I took more turmeric, you know, but it had to come from the exercise. That was the gap in between what so good to great bit I guess. And so that’s what I did. So I think previously I was maybe getting on my exercise bike like two or three times a week and maybe getting to hot yoga once a week, which are my chosen like exercise activities like I love them both. But I basically switched to what I did at the very beginning of the program, which is exercising every single day without fail. And in a way, exercising every day is easier for me because there is no choice then. I’ve committed twice a week. Could be today or could be tomorrow because I’m quite tired. If his every day it’s just like choices removed. So that was quite game changing for me and then really enjoying it because what happens of course when you’re doing more of these things is you get better at them, and I had less pain than I’d had at the beginning of the program, or no pain. So I was going to hot yoga or still am maybe three or four times a week, so doubling that and finding, Oh, I can do crow pose, without falling on my face. And the same thing with cycling.

Vanessa – So, yes, the cycling as well. You know, I have a peloton I’m very lucky to have and I just love it so much. Mostly I love the music and I’ve always found it really energizing for the music. But actually all of a sudden when I started doing it four or five times a week, rather than one or two, also look at me climbing the leaderboard. I’m not in the bottom 10% anymore, I’m in the middle. These are like fit people all around the world, and that just felt really good. And it kind of started matching up with the affirmation that I said at the very beginning of the Paddison Program, which I think I nicked directly from you, which was to be stronger, fitter, and more powerful every day.

Clint – That’s your own.

Vanessa – I think about that every day, and all of a sudden I was like, I really am like I genuinely am. And I think that keeping my body and my immune system busy with the repair of my body after 90-minute hot yoga session or a 20-minute hit class on the peloton, it had to do that. It had to repair me from that work. It didn’t really have the time or the resources to attack my own joints.

Clint – It’s an interesting sort of way of thinking about it. I often have the same sort of mentality, but in a different phrase. I often think with the big joints and there’s a swear word when I use it for myself. So I won’t say it here. But with the big joints, you need to beat the shit out of them. Like you need in a way that works for the joint in a safe way, you got to give it to it because that thing is full of oxidative stress. It’s full of inflammation, like a child that hasn’t eaten in three days, you have to give it your full attention and move the heck out of that thing.

Vanessa – Yes.

Clint – It’s safe, repeatable, ongoing way. Because when the joint is inflamed, it’s constantly a source of oxidative stress of free radical production. The best way to eliminate that is to drive anti-inflammatory molecules into the joint, which can only be done often when there’s a baker’s cyst in a knee for example, with movement. These things can become isolated, trapped, almost, impossible, no go zones for the body. You don’t get blood into the cartilage, right. It requires so no of your compression for nutrients. The whole thing with a joint is movement. Otherwise, it would be a straight bone. It’s purpose is to move and we got to give it what it’s designed for. We’ve got that going on locally, and then systemically all the anti-inflammatory associative molecules that come with cardiovascular activity can also relocate all aspects of the body in the same way that inflammation anywhere in the body causes more leaky gut. Same the anti-inflammatory processes involved with systemic exercise, cardiovascular exercise can likewise reduce inflammation in the gut and leakiness. We got to do what you did, we got to move every day. And the reason I love every day as well is that your immune system doesn’t take a day off. So you need to continue to throw buckets on that thing every day. Otherwise, it’s just going to get bigger. So every day is how we exercise until we get to a point where the body is super settled. Then at that point, I like to exercise heavily every other day, but that’s a luxury position. There’s nothing wrong with every day, it’s just, you can afford every other day if you feel tremendous. But if you’re not tremendous and you’re in a healing zone every day.

Vanessa – Yeah. And there was something magical for me about mixing up the two. So for me, cycling does something different from yoga and different types of yoga. So I’ll go to like a yoga Nidra class, which is actually all about long, long stretches, you know, like a minute, 5 minutes in one pose. Darkroom, candles, brain, totally still versus a really, like, funky, like yoga flow, moving loads, high energy, sweating buckets. They all seem to do different things for me. In the beginning, I just did cycling, but now I’ve worked out actually having a variety of cardio, stretching, hot, cool, it seems to be really good. Again, I feel like it shakes the body up, it confuses it a little bit and just seems to work.

Clint – I really love how you say that. I love this concept I haven’t heard before, but there’s this almost like doing something that that is a higher priority than the body just sitting back and destroying joints. It’s like, No, listen to me, I want you to repair that muscle that’s just been working hard in my quadriceps. I need you to now elongate that fiber in my glute because I’ve done a five-minute stretch. And like you say, all these repairs and build things that the body can be forced to do as a distraction mechanism. We’re talking very colloquially here, but the concepts do seem to play out with great results. And it’s funny, you know, hot yoga and cycling, they were my favorites for years. Cycling for the knees I just found it so good for the knees, and then the hot yoga for everything else.

Vanessa – Like, gosh, it’s just heaven. Yeah, it’s my spiritual home, hot yoga. It’s been so healing.

Clint – It is, it’s amazing, isn’t it? Some people are often dissatisfied with the solution of exercise, partly because they feel that it’s something that that’s maybe too hard or it’s something that they just have never really done, or they just don’t believe that it can be as effective as what it is. I just want you to now imagine that someone’s in front of you and they’re like, but Vanessa, what about, did you take supplements, or is there anything else that you were doing? And I just want you to look them down the camera and say, it’s the exercise. Can you just lay it on a bit stronger?

Vanessa – Lay on. Not a big fan of marketing now, even though that was my job. But Nike had something right, didn’t they, with their slogan, Just do it. And I would also think about that every day when I think, Oh, I don’t want to go. I don’t want to drive into town and go to hot yoga. But I would actually I got to a point where I can be grateful to my R.A. for being my reason, for being my alert system. I’m like, other people don’t have this, they can just sit and watch Netflix for 3 hours. But I have the responsibility and I’m going to go. The impact of not going is so noticeable that it has to be done. I have been doing the Paddison Program now for three and a half years. So it’s taken me a while to get to this and to realize just how impactful the exercise is. I really thought it was 90% food, 10% exercise, or maybe like 1% meditation and affirmations and stuff. And like now I can see it’s more like 50/50. And if you don’t do the exercise, you’re getting 50% of the benefit.

Clint – So well said, that is exactly how I feel as well. Bikram yoga, was the hot yoga that I well, I still like and haven’t been to for a while, but have cravings and will go back at some point. But in his teachings, he says some weird and wonderful, wacky things that I don’t necessarily agree with. But his sentiment is that, you know, he says, if you do my yoga, you become bulletproof, relationship proof, sad proof, age proof, and he goes on and on and on. Then he says, It don’t matter what you eat, you eat hamburger every day. No problem. You do my yoga, you stay healthy. And the point is that he’s closer to the truth than I would like to admit in that massive amounts of exercise can forgive dietary mistakes. It can just really it can do so much that it can sort of put all of the little stuff that we obsess about in the diet, like, oh, I think I’m sensitive to like blueberry or I think I’m sensitive to broccoli, but not cauliflower. Well, if you’re doing Bikram yoga every day, if you’re doing yoga, if you’re on the peloton for 45 minutes and you’re in the mid-range of people around the world. Your body will not move in its inflammatory state one iota between broccoli and cauliflower, it just won’t. It’s because it’s at a different level because you’re fueling it with so much anti-inflammatory and pro-gut health impact with the exercise that it just puts all that other stuff sort of under the carpet.

Vanessa – I agree. And I think something even bigger is happening in my view, which is that you are changing in your identity. And I think there’s a little bit this happens with the diet. There’s definitely an identity shift when you become someone that, takes a Tupperware of food to a party, like, yeah, you’ve changed. But something bigger happens in terms of your identity when you become somebody who exercises every day. Like, that’s unusual and it has such a huge impact on how you feel about yourself. Stronger, fitter, more powerful, you look different, you move in different circles, you become part of a different tribe. All of that has such an enormous halo effect on all of your other habits. I believe that you do become a bit bulletproof, you change, you really change your identity shifts, and that makes willpower almost irrelevant. It’s not like, oh, I really want to have, I don’t know, deep fried, whatever. If you’re someone that exercise every day, you wouldn’t anyway. And that’s the shift that’s happened for me.

Clint – I love it. It’s so profound that you do you start to follow different people on Instagram. You start to talk about different things at events. You find that people who are physically in shape are as attractive as someone who looks sort of pretty that you just admire. Sort of physical, sort of athletic appearance you think.

Vanessa – Health.

Clint – Yeah, health. It sort of gives you also a sense of insurance with your health that if you did eat something a little off, you’ve got that sort of daily kind of armour wrapped around you from your exercise that feels protective.

Vanessa – I think it’s a really nice way of thinking about it. You’re right, without that, when it’s diet only, you are so much more vulnerable to mistakes or just having a day off.

Clint – Yeah, that’s right. That’s what we needed to that’s the that’s what we needed the word vulnerable. Your vulnerability goes when you become physically fit.

Vanessa – Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s it.

Clint – That’s what we needed. Your vulnerability goes when you’re physically fit.

Vanessa – Yeah.

Clint – One of the reasons for that, and because I always like the science on this and this is just so interesting to me. Is that one of the big things about exercise is that it reduces this overload of free radical activity that’s throughout the body, that’s being generated by the immune system. The white blood cells create free radicals to kill stuff because the free radicals steal electrons from foreign pathogens that are in the body. But in our case, it’s doing that to our own cells because it’s the perceived threat of our own tissues. So the immune system is heavily engaged free radical production, free radical production, free radical production. And ultimately, no matter how many blueberries we eat, we’ve become in a state of deficiency of electrons, it’s oxidative stress. The best way to combat that is not through diet and medications in most cases making it worse. The only way out is through exercise because exercise creates a tiny little bit of oxidative stress every time we do it. And the body then overcompensates and builds up more antioxidant enzymes within our cells, under the molecule of glutathione and catalase and superoxide dismutase, which are antioxidant enzymes. And these then are way more like an order of magnitude more effective at reducing free radical presence in the blood than the diet is. And of course, the longevity podcasts a lot of people enjoy and become more popular all about how to live longer, and how to reduce aging. It’s all a lot of it, I’d say like a vast bulk of the contents about glutathione, this ultimate antioxidant in our body. Best way, the unbeatable way to improve it is through exercise.

Vanessa – I love that, I didn’t know all of that science. Thank you for sharing that.

Clint – Yes. And so what we’re doing, we are literally becoming long-term protected against the ups and downs of the disease, because it becomes cellular and it becomes not flippant from meal to meal. But it becomes built into our cells in the same way that changing your fatty acid composition of the cell membrane is equally a long-term protective mechanism, like a glutathione result from exercise. I appreciate us spending some time just to look at the science behind our nice little comment before about the vulnerability goes when you’re doing daily exercise and that’s why.

Vanessa – Yeah, love it. It’s almost like accessing daily exercises like unlocking a new level of the Paddison Program. And I know it’s in the Paddison program, but I do believe I wasn’t as committed to it at the beginning as I was to the food. And I know from other people that do the program that it’s a similar story. But when you unlock that new level, that’s when it really takes off, that’s when you can get off the drugs and stay in remission.

Clint – Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it’s the normal progression for everyone. Everyone always focuses on the diet, and in fact, I’m in the process of sort of coming to the end of writing a book. And in the chapter on exercise, I almost have to beg people to read the chapter, because when I know that when I’m giving presentations about it and when I bring up exercise, it’s like the time when people want to check their watch and use the bathroom.

Vanessa – Yeah. Why is that then? It’s just. It’s hard. It’s harder.

Clint – If I knew how to get people to exercise in one or two phrases, I would be a better coach, I would be a better influencer, I would be a better person and I’d be more useful, and I don’t. And so I try, the chapter as it reads now, it drools upon all sorts of things I say, like literally sitting, the more you sit, it’s a risk factor for death. I guess it’s related to how, how much time you spend sitting each day. And in fact, you might have even brought this up now.

Vanessa – I think I might, but I’m at my standing desk right now. And I never sit, never sit.

Clint – I’m dying as we speak because I’m sitting.

Vanessa – No Clint, get up.

Clint – I mean, grip strength, right? The strength of your grip is an indicator of longevity. The stronger your grip, the more likely you are to live longer. And then in terms of just the science and a lot of the things we’ve been talking about, the glutathione, but then also the anti-inflammatory, myokines, cytokines, all these things, it’s just limitless. But will someone take I don’t know what the magic thing is to get people to do it because people are in pain. It hurts them to move.

Vanessa – I bet you’ve read it, but there’s an amazing book called The Joy of Movement by Kelly McGonigal.

Clint – No, I haven’t read it.

Vanessa – It’s really good. She talks about myokines a lot and she is a doctor, I believe.

Clint – The joy of movement.

Vanessa – The Joy Of movement, a brilliant read, it’s fascinating. It actually talks a lot about the power of synchronicity. So when people move together in sync, it releases even more good stuff like forgive me, I can’t remember the science, but good stuff in our bodies, it creates oxytocin, a feeling of connection, and that is all just so wonderful for our health. So that’s why, again, I was like, Oh, hot yoga that is part of it. I love the fact when I move into Warrior Two, everybody else moves into Warrior Two, and yeah, it’s a great book.

Clint – Yes, it’s like a therapeutic exercise, dancing all in one. Well, look, I’ve had a lot of fun, I’ve done a lot of talking and I forgive me if I’ve used up more of my allocation here. I know it’s an interview with you, but when it comes to exercise, it’s my passion because the diet’s there. We know what to eat, we just follow the program, getting people off the couch, that’s harder. But that’s the biggest untapped resource for everyone.

Vanessa – Totally. It’s a great way of explaining it and it just makes you feel brilliant, which is the side effect.

Clint – Having said all that, is there anything else that we should shine a light on for you before we wrap this up?

Vanessa – There is one thing which for me is like the side order to the main course of exercise and the diet, but I found it to be a really good side order. And I started doing acupuncture in March and which is when, if you remember, I stopped all of the drugs. I guess I just wanted, I felt like I needed some sort of safety net and who knows? But I am finding it enormously relaxing and I’m going maybe once a fortnight and having sessions with a really very highly trusted acupuncturist here in the UK. And it does seem to provide a level of relief. And I don’t really have any pain anymore, but in the colder months here in the UK I can still get a little bit of a just a twinge in my wrist, which was originally my worst affected joint. And I go and have acupuncture with her and it goes. So I do think it’s a nice little additional tool to have in the bag. Works for me.

Clint – I love it and I’d like to learn a little more. Where do they put the little tiny pins? And before you answer that, I interviewed a guy, Dr. Wertlan, from South Africa, definitely at the end of his career, maybe two years ago. And he talked about some of the sorts of you’ve got to put acupuncture needles into the I guess the almost the compulsory places each time. And then the practitioners need to be careful to then go closer to the actual affected area. So my question in a reframed way is do you get some sort of Naito’s or pins in the same spots every time, almost like the default spots, and then some specific ones near your wrist?

Vanessa – It’s precisely that, Yes. And actually, I haven’t asked why and I probably should, but in the first session, I had them everywhere. I felt like hellraiser. I was lying down, they were like in my head, they were in my neck and I was just like, Oh God, I’m not sure I can do it. I actually just fell asleep for 40 minutes it was amazing. And the warmth and the darkness just lovely, and of course, all that fresh blood, like rushing around your body, like it’s just got to be good for you. Subsequent sessions of which I’ve maybe now had 6 or 7. It’s not the same as that, I literally sit on a couch and I have them in my wrist and then in a couple of the finger joints that were affected. But then they also always go in my elbows which aren’t affected and never have been. But there seems to be some key points that they go in which aren’t affected, like you said, and then right into the joints that were heavily affected and can be twangy.

Clint – Well, that’s fascinating, I didn’t even know that they can go straight into affected joints. That’s really interesting, and something I’m going to ask a little bit more about. My wife sees an acupuncturist every month or so and she really enjoys the sessions but has also become really good friends with the practitioner. And so it’s kind of as much as a sort of talking about life and everything almost like a hairdresser.

Vanessa – I mean that’s all the good things, isn’t it? That’s great. I mean, I just wouldn’t be able to stay awake every single time I go fall asleep. But then I feel my energy spikes massively usually the day after, I’m so high in energy and centred. Yes, funny old thing, I don’t understand it fully. I’d like to do some more research too, but I think it’s interesting and effective enough to talk about with you something that people might want to explore.

Clint – Yeah, and I think that maybe a little maybe a micro-trauma happens because of the needle and the body overcompensate and sensing reparative molecules. In the same way potentially, like when you’ve got a sore muscle and you press against it and hold pressure against it, perhaps that’s a different mechanism, but definitely sort of it’s like sounding the alarm, Hey, come to this area. Just focus your attention on your body, and take a look at what’s going on.

Vanessa – Yeah.

Clint – Well, this has been fun. Thank you very much, Vanessa.

Vanessa – I’d love to catching up with you again.

Clint – I appreciate you sharing everything that you’ve shared with us today. And also, just being such an advocate for health and, doing all the things that you’re doing. Just being as healthy as you can is as much as you can help other people because we’re able to learn from you here from your experiences. And hopefully, implement some of it for all of us who are listening and have similar situations going on.

Vanessa – Yeah, of course. It’s a pleasure.

Clint – And how’s business going before we wrap up?

Vanessa – Oh, it’s going great. Thank you. Well, things were pretty brand new when I spoke to you before, and now it’s pretty established. So, yeah, we’re busy. Lots of clients and working hard with people to improve the health of their employees, which is so important right now. And the Paddison story gets told every time I meet a new client. So I’m doing some marketing for you as well.

Clint – Well, thank you. And then I hear you weaving it in, but I appreciate it. I’m sure it’s got to do with sort of having to spend more time at home and having a work-life balance.

Vanessa – Yeah, it’s my personal story really, of my journey to health. So people like to hear that and understand sort of how Welfy was born. It’s great, we’re busy.

Clint – The business is doing well. If anyone needs to get help with balancing work life, especially those who wants to talk to Vanessa, who’s got so much to share on this topic, then head over to.

Vanessa – Www.welfy.co.uk.

Clint – All right. Well, thanks Vanessa, and looking forward to maybe chatting with you for another year so we can get the next update. But now that you’ve got all the ducks in a row, I’m sure that you just going to be rock solid.

Vanessa – Thank you. I am so grateful. I know I’ve already said it, but thank you so much. You know, you’ve been a huge part of this journey and I feel so well because of the program. So thank you.


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